Episode 7 - Yvonne Taylor with Jewel Foster

Black and Gay, Back in the Day

Season 1 Episode 7 - “Yvonne Taylor with Jewel Foster”

Date: 15.11.22

Season: 1

Episode: 7

Presenters: Marc Thompson

Contributors: Yvonne Taylor, Jewel Foster

Producers: Shivaji Dave, Tash Walker

Assistant Producer: Abi McIntosh

Music: Kemi Oyolede

Artwork: Amaroun

[Advert]

[Music]

MT: ‘Welcome to Black and Gay, Back in the Day’. We’re bringing to life the archive of images of Black, LGBTQ+ life in Britain from the 1970s to the early ‘00s. I’m Marc Thompson, I’m an activist and health promotion specialist, and I’ve built this archive with the journalist and writer Jason Okundaye.

[Music]

MT: In this episode, we are looking at a photograph that holds so much history around the power of community. 

[Camera shutter]

MT: A black and white picture of a woman, angled from below, is slightly out of focus, but you are drawn in by the woman who is wearing flared trousers with a white belt and a polo shirt. Her right arm is bent with her hips popping to the left, as she leans on sound system speakers that pile up high to the ceiling. The woman, who we know to be Yvonne Taylor, is looking directly at you and wearing glasses that reflect the flash of the camera.

[Music]

MT: When you look back in history, community-run collectives are often the backbone of any movement. They are places where people can come together. They are also the roots for change. In this episode, I asked community organiser Jewel Foster to find out more about the history behind this amazing picture.

[Music]

JF: I'm looking at this picture; a very tall person looking right down through the lens of a camera. I like the way that it's relaxed but also holds a lot of power, I guess. And then the photo is taken from a lower angle as well which makes her seem taller and gives her a sense of authority.  And she's leaning up against a bunch of musical equipment, like a stereo and then stuff; I don't know what that is, because I was born in the 90s! There's one of those room dividers that’s made out of beads, which I remember from my nan's house. I'm not sure [if] she's wearing glasses or sunglasses; very cool, very cool from the way that they're standing, and also just the fact that they're so comfortable with their photo being taken and that someone is taking a photo of them in this way. It's very relaxed. Yeah, I think it's quite a powerful picture.

[Music]

JF:  My name is Jewel Foster, and I make music and set up community events. This picture is of someone called Yvonne Taylor, who I think started Sistermatic. I've started to do some research on Sistermatic and Yvonne Taylor. So Sistermatic was a lesbian-run sound system. They put on monthly nights in South London. I think I would have definitely gone to one of these nights. So, I read these two articles about Sistermatic and they spoke a bit about how difficult it was being a Black queer woman in the 70s and 80s. And how these nights started a community and provided a sense of safety, and how the importance of dance within our communities. It was really cool finding out about this. I think a lot of queer people in general, probably all over but in London, we speak about the fact that there's not a lot of lesbian spaces or lesbian owned spaces, and Sistermatic wasn't something that I'd heard about before. So it's an interesting topic, because I guess it speaks to the limited documentation and archive Black owned spaces. But also, I'm sure Yvonne could talk a lot about the history of queer and Black owned spaces and, one, why they're so needed but also why they're so lacking as well. I think that, unlike with sis-het, white people, there isn’t n such a variety of spaces, so that it can be harder to find community and it can be harder to connect with other POC’s and other queer people. And I think that with the community events that I've been doing, and trying to get like QTIPOC, queer, trans and intersex people of colour, they're chilled events; so it's not about dancing and it's talking and finding community is really important in these events. And I have been hearing that it can be difficult to find these spaces or to integrate yourself in spaces because of the fact that they can seem  inaccessible and I think that part of the reason is that they are such niche spaces. I think, also from the picture, it's not like the photos that you see of club nights or  queer Black-ran club nights, because it has so much more of a familial quality, I guess, it's just very casually; it's like a picture that was taken at home I guess. I'm looking forward to finding out from Yvonne what the story behind this picture was and where it was taken.

[Music]

JF: I’m on my way to meet Yvonne, and I’m feeling a bit nervous but also excited. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about running my NGO community space, all of the positives and hardships that came with that. I'm excited to hear about her experience and I guess also learn about it as well.

[Music]

YT: Hey! How are you doing!

JF: Hello!

YT: Nice to meet you.

JF:  Nice to meet you too. I've got this photo of you, it’s this one here.

YT: Oh my god, yeah! That was the start of me’ troubles I think. Gosh, that photo was taken when I was about 14 and a half. My mother lived in New York and myself and my sister had gone to New York to visit. But that picture was taken at my then mother's boyfriend's house, who had a big thing about music and  music was really the kind of thing that I connected to. With all the dysfunctionality that was going off around me, music paved the way for me to find a sort of safe place. And that guy had that tape to tape reel and he was letting me just record some music while he was out working that day. And then my sister came along and just took that picture. And I think it epitomises the point in my life where I thought, yeah, there's life. There's potential to be happy out there.

JF: Was it an older or younger sister that took the picture?

YT: My sister is two years younger than me. So she would have been 12 and it's probably about the only decent picture she’s ever taken of me! I’m quite happy to tell her that too!

JF: I think it's funny that you say that because it looks, from the photo, that she looks up to you and respects you from the way the photo was taken.

YT: Oh, gosh, I hadn't really looked at that in that way before but, let me look at that again. So yeah, that would make a great deal of sense. So, thanks for bringing that to my attention, because I've never thought of that. It's a great picture, I think. And I look happy in that picture. If you see all the other pictures of me around that age, in sunny old Nottingham, I’m maybe not so happy.

JF: Why were you so much happier in New York?

YT: It was really rare for my mum to have a boyfriend that might even want to be near. And this guy was actually really, really cool. My mother wasn't around very much because she had to work apparently. But he would say to me every day, ‘right I’m going to work and when I come back, what do you want to do?’  And it always involved going somewhere to listen to music. But one of the things I wanted to do, as this 14-year-old, there's something not quite straight about me. I wanted to go to Greenwich Village and he took me there. So he took me there the night before. And I’m now feeling like 10-foot-tall. I'm feeling 10-foot-tall. And so that was like a realisation that actually as a young, Black, queer woman iIt wasn't really going down very well in Nottingham, which is the city I'm from. But in New York, I suddenly saw lots of people that I could relate to. So it was a game changer.

JF: And you knew about that when you were in Nottingham?

YT: Oh god yeah. ‘A strange as my parents used to say, since I was about five.

JF: You were longing for Greenwich Village?

YT: I don’t know about Greenwich Village but I kind of knew about my sexuality. And I'd read about Greenwich Village. Actually, no, my step-brother told me about Greenwich Village, and he said you should go check out Greenwich Village and Harlem. So that's how I got to check those two places.

JF: So there's like a tape deck or something?

YT: Oh, god, yeah, it was an antique! It was a reel to reel. I mean, you know, you could put hours and hours of music on there. I mean, I didn't fill that up. He'd already started it and stuff and then somewhere in that reel to reel, I don’t know where it is now, there’s at least five hours of something. It was very antiquated, it was. But you know, it’s pretty antiquated now, but at the time, it was considered to be a bit out there. Especially as poor Black people in the neighbourhood, that’s what we spent the money on, clothes and music. 

JF: What age were you when you started going out then?

YT: Well, my first official club was at a Socialist Workers Youth Club party. It was a club, but it was in the youth club. And you had to be 13 to go and I managed to get my sewing teacher, it was a bit naive, to sign a piece of paper to say that I was 13, I don’t think she realised what she was signing. So I ended up going to this disco,  with a bottle of coke in our hands, that was a treat. And we were playing like we're adults, I suppose, because we’d seen all the adults in our houses, respective homes, dancing to the blues. So we were kind of replicating that. And of course, because it was a mixed use club in terms of ethnicity, we also had some pop songs. 

JT: And that was in Nottingham?

YT: That was in sunny Nottingham. A lot happened in Nottingham but not enough to keep me there.

JT: That’s interesting that you say that the discoes were of mixed ethnicity in Nottingham even in the late 60s.

YT: Yeah, because when I came to London, I did notice that there were much more departmentalized, sectioned-off communities because there were a lot more of you. In Nottingham, the communities were large but not large enough to take over a whole neighbourhood. So I grew up in a no Blacks, no dogs, no Irish neighbourhood, and literally, we were all known as West Indians then, and Irish people that lived in a neighbourhood. Then as we worked our way up the housing chain, and my dad married my stepmother, who was a white lower-middle class woman who owned her own house, I went to school to learn to read and write, and that incorporated into Black, Asians and white people living as next door neighbours and going to the same schools and going to the same youth clubs.

[Music]

JT: When did you start Sistermatic?

YT: Gosh, Sistermatic. So, when I eventually left home, I was 18, and then joined the army. I did that for almost seven years. And then I came out of the army in 83/84 and went to Brighton, and ran a couple of nights there and then after about nine months came to London. And I really didn't like the women's scene. I didn't like any of the gay scene. It was all a bit dull, a bit droll and music was a bit naff. But I was seeing this woman who took me to a dinner party and I ended up being at this dinner party. The woman I was dating a white woman. When I went to the dinner party,  there were three other Black women. And they were having this meeting, which is what I've been taken along to, a friend obviously knew that I liked to DJ and so they were looking for a DJ to to work with this new concept that they had, which was to run this club that was primarily for all women; anybody that defined themselves as a woman, Black, white, Asian, trans, didn't really matter. So that's what the club was about, because for me to go out or for us or to go out anywhere it was difficult because we weren't really welcomed at these clubs anyway, and the music wasn't really…if you'd had a different musical experience there, it wasn't to be found. So as did it as part of this collective just four of us. We just decided that we would set up this club and it and it probably was the thing that made my arrival in London, because I hadn’t been here very long,I think I’d been here about two months, very long. I didn't have a job. So you know, I could put my whole heart into actually being part of this collective. And so once a month, every month for almost nine years, we would lug these huge speaker boxes, and other equipment into the back of my car or my friend's car. And set up this party on a Saturday night. There'll be food; generally speaking, there would be a vegetarian curry and a chicken curry. And there’d be food, there’d be drinks and the salsa room in the centre was pretty pivotal. Because it had a huge room that held 250 women and effectively it was also sound-proof which at the time was like a real plus. Because then people passing by couldn't really hear the music, although Acre Lane wasn't a thoroughfare, so it was fairly safe as well. Yes, we did do exceptionally well with it. So then I’d need like two days to recover.

JF: Were you hearing from partygoers that there was a need for it?

YT: I don't think I realised the importance of that particular club, until much later. A majority of the women that attended Sistermatic would more than likely say, they came to London in the 80s and there wasn’t really that much for them to do. And then they came across this party. From my understanding of the feedback that I've got,  it was for lots of women of colour and and for other women, it was a game changer. In terms of how we all met each other because there was this segregation in London that I hadn’t quite experienced because there's not enough of us elsewhere. But in London, the kind of parties that were available to women of colour would have been private parties in people's houses. Historically, there are women out there that will say that that club probably saved them from going down a dark hole, which sounds a bit arrogant but that's kind of really the truth. There’s nothing else to compare it with. But at least we had something.

JF: I have a question; that's a more general question. Why is dance so important?

YT: It sounds really silly. Dancing is something that most people have done throughout all the generations, we've had access to music. You generally go to some sort of dance whether it's in the 40s and 50s, whatever. You go to a dance, you know, you shake a little leg, and you can see people and their euphoria. They’re like, ‘oh gosh. I can just let go.’ And that got better and better. I mean, certainly for me as a child of Jamaicans, I grew up in a household where, when people were happiest was when they were having a little dance and they were listening to their music from back home. For me, I grew up in a dysfunctional family. However, the one legacy that they did leave me was that they were all happiest when they were in some places playing music. It's almost like my parents came in in the 50s, believe you me, they needed something to forget that they were working in a cigarette factory and places, whatever it was, or a boots factory, whatever they're working, Monday until Friday, having to deal with that racist abuse day in day out and then come home. This is the only thing they had to keep them sane. Sometimes, when my friends are in a bit of a swishy space, I just need to take them somewhere where they can just forget about it for half an hour. And back in the day, that's all we had. We didn’t have counselling or therapy, we just had friends and music so we had music to relate to.

[Music]

[Adverts]

[Music]

JT: I have a funny story that's counter to what you're saying about therapy. I remember when I was in a period where I was really sad, and I was going to therapy and I was telling my therapist that I just wanted to go dancing. She was like, ‘what does that represent to you?’ And she was trying to ‘therapise’ my need to go dancing. And I was like, ‘I just want to dance. I want to go dancing! It doesn't represent anything. I just want to dance!’

YT: It’s like: I want a night off!

JT:  I just want to shake my booty! That’s all! [Both laugh]

YT: Yeah, exactly. You know, as a kid, that's what I did. I danced because I didn’t know what else to do. My parents were just a complete nightmare. And, you know, adults at that time had their own stuff going off. So it was like, well, what else are you going to do? It was the one place where you’ve got some familiarity. You know? That's the power of music; it's a thing that you kind of go, ‘I don't want to talk to my therapist. I just want to have a minute to myself where nothing is going to intrude.’ So yeah, I can relate to that. That makes me feel better now!I keep saying this. Does anyone really understand what I'm talking about!

[Music]

JT: Also, like in London, outside of Sistermatic, and living in London.

YT: Outside of the party, which was probably my safest little genre, there was a lot of homophobia still. Obviously in the mid 80s, we were looking at the advent of AIDS, HIV, but for me on an individual basis, living my everyday life in South London as well. Yeah, it was difficult for a lot of us. I mean, you weren't holding your partner's hand. You weren't making it obvious, although it clearly was obvious by my style of dress or something. But you had to be mindful of the hostilities around you. And even getting work you were forced down that route of liberal local authorities lashing out jobs to people. I've worked for them; I hated it. So I had lots of difficulties with getting work. For me it was a difficult phase, it was difficult because, whilst I didn't have anybody to worry about offending in terms of family. For a lot of other people there was a lot of stuff around family living in London and so their lives were led in a bit of a shadow, you know, under the radar. When I think about the 80s, I kind of go ‘what was good about it?’ And actually what was good about it was that as the end of the 80s came, we were starting to get more choices of things to do. There were community groups, we got the Black Lesbian and Gay Centre. Bellenden Road, Peckham, was in a railway arch but it was our railway arch where we could go and talk, just play pool, talk, do everyday things that you might want to do. Loved it. Absolutely loved it. And for some, it's still difficult now, my generation certainly. Back in the day, it was really bad. You just didn't want to see your brother and sister because nobody knew. Nobody was really out in the community, as such, or very few of us, I should say, I don’t want to generalise like that. I remember I had a friend who met this woman and they met at some talk group. And then they started dating. This woman hadn’t bothered to say to her that she's got three kids. ANd it was like, the whole drama that creates. She’s got three kids! Does that mean to say she can't be part of the community because she's got three kids? So we were going through what I'd call a transitioning period, where we didn't know what we were supposed to be. We didn't know what the rules were supposed to be. We knew we were breaking some rules, but other rules we were adhering to because that's how we were conditioned, if that makes sense. So I would say life in the 80s was a bit of a twister. Coming out and then having the support of my family helped me to stand my ground. And I didn't have kids and I didn't have anything that I was going to potentially lose. When you go into these feminist meetings and things, a lot of what was being said at the time I couldn't really relate to because this might be what happens in your world, but as a Black woman, I can’t even relate to what you're talking about. And not just for myself, there was a lot of conflict between what was deemed the right thing to do and the right thing to campaign about and which demos we should go on. And I'm like, a brother has just been shot by a cop in Brixton mate, I think that's the demo that I want to go on. It felt safe to be part of a group. But you know, what group? Also, I'm interested in meeting a community, when we say the word community that gives you the idea that there's like this togetherness. There was no togetherness.

JF: I guess you spoke a lot about isolation. And you also said that Sistermatic saved a lot people from going down a dark space. So would you say then, in the 80s, was there a rise of community spaces? And I guess if we could just talk about what community means to you.

YT: There was. Towards the end, mid 80s, towards the end, like I said earlier on, we had a Black Lesbian Gay Centre on Bellenden Road. That was a big plus. There was a gay centre in Farringdon in the 90s. We had several Women's Centres scattered around, I don’t think any of them exist anymore, but we had several Women's Centres. And then we had other people organising individual things and bringing outside influences from America into and I think that's when the communities start to realise there's more to our lives than what we’ve got ourselves into here. I'm not saying that America’s got the answer. That's not what I'm saying. But I am saying that it opened a lot of people's eyes to: we might be a minority here, but actually we're a minority. Because once we started doing something slightly different than the club scene. And there were all these opportunities for people to come and just sit down and chat about different things, women and children and whatever, it meant that there was space to do that. There was a sense of community because there was nothing else there. We've diversified now. If somebody said to me 35 years ago that I’ll be going to an essentially straight club on a Saturday night, I’d have gone, ‘that’s never going to happen!’ So things have evolved. All of these little things gave us a sense of purpose. Because if the only thing you've got to do is go to work, suffer all of that angst from your colleagues and then look forward to Friday and Saturday. I mean, it just means that your life is lacking something. You know, we didn't have any rules so we had to make it up as we went along. The community then was less fractious than it is now because I think there's so many different communities. We're not all necessarily talking to each other, whereas we were much better at talking to each other, even if we didn't really agree with what you were saying.

JT: You said also, that you were just making it all up as you went along because you didn't have anyone leading the way. And I guess, I think of that as an important thing when it comes to queer community.

YF: Yeah, okay. I'm going to take that back slightly because we did have some quite significant leaders. But they were very much our political leaders. They were our social leaders, but the thing is, as a community, we would work. If  you're trying to encourage people to think about something in a very political way. If you want to bring a diverse group, you need something that’s going to bring a diverse group. And so, that's how we worked together. There were leaders. I mean, I didn't see myself particularly as a leader, but I'm sure that somebody would say, ‘Well, you know, Yvonne did the social side’. And people like Savvy and Veronica, and many of us, Dirk, they did the political side, but we worked together to make sure that we could get as many different types of people to come to that meeting, or to come to that debate or to be at that rally.

[Music]

JF: When you were in these spaces and creating these spaces and putting on these events, were you thinking that you were a part of history, and did you think about legacy?

YT: God no! No plan whatsoever! I mean, my philosophy in life is, if I put on an event, I want all the people that come to have the best time that they can have. Somebody said to me once, about 10 years ago, Yvonne, you’ve probably done more to move race relations along, in terms of forcing, or not forcing, but getting people into one space that would never normally be in that space. So I didn't see it. I certainly didn't see it as a legacy but as I get older I realise the significance of what many of us did without really realising the significance of what we did.

JF: Without it being I guess, a political legacy or history. Were any of you thinking, ‘we are Black, queer women, and we are existing and we need to be documenting this’?

YT:  I wasn't. There are women out there that were documenting stuff, you know, women and men actually, our community, through the Black Lesbian Gay Centre. I mean, Veronica McKenzie, is a documentary filmmaker, she's a filmmaker. She's made a few documentaries. And one of them covers that whole period of the 80s to the early 90s and what the political agenda was for us as a community at the time. For those of us where that wasn't really our forte, we were able to convey that to people, like Veronika and Dirk and Savvy. I could reel them all off. They’re the ones that went in and battled and wrote the grant applications, not just for themselves, but for people like me, people who were like ‘that's not our forte’, they didn't just take themselves down the road, they took other people with them. So, to me, the community is about making each other feel good about who we are and about making allowances for people's differences.

[Music]

MT: Hey, Jewel!

JF: Hello!

MT: So you went out and you met Yvonne? Tell me how was that?

JF: It was really cool. Yeah, it was really cool to meet somebody who had done so much in a really chilled way. It wasn't a big deal to her at the time, and it didn't really seem like to be a big deal for her now. But it was, just yeah, it just happened.

MT: She's lovely Yvonne. And I've known Yvonne for a while and she's run clubs and just great, great things in the community. So it’s great you got to connect with her. So you had this wonderful conversation, and what stuck with you from that conversation?

JF: I would say the conversations that we had about how important dance is and how it's invigorating and it's so much so important, both for the individual and for the culture and the community. And I've been thinking a lot about how she was putting on these events and it was a fun thing and it was also an important thing. And the context that I've been thinking about that in terms of burnout, even though she was doing this work, it was so important. And as I said, it just wasn't a big thing to her. The fact that she was building community and had that around her would have really, really contributed to her not feeling that sense of burnout I guess.

MT: Which is really important. So she creates Sistermatic, this great movement for queer women. Did you talk about the impact that that had on community and community groups?

JT: Yeah, yeah, we did. She spoke about how people came to the night and came up to her and said that the night literally saved their lives. And yeah, just at the time, there wasn't a lot to do for Black lesbians and women. And how it created a moment, I guess.

MT: You're out in the world now. Do you think things have changed for Black lesbian women, Black queer women in the world?

JT: Yeah, definitely. There's a lot for us to do now. Yvonne did say that she found that the culture was maybe a little bit more clicky than it used to be. And that back when she was doing Sistermatic, and in the 80s people were just happy to meet everybody and be authentic. And she said that she found that lesbian spaces can be a little clicky, and I think that I understand what she was saying and honestly, where she's coming from. I think now that there's so much, maybe, in terms of things to do, and also social media and stuff like that. And people have the ability to create themselves and really build themselves and build an image. It can seem quite intimidating going out into these spaces.

MT: So some of the things that Yvonne was involved in and that you spoke about in your talk were the Brixton Black Women's Centre, and the Black Lesbian and Gay Centre. These are physical spaces where people gathered in the community and connected. We don't necessarily have those today. We may have clubs and social venues but does that absence impact our lives? I suppose my question is, do we still need those physical spaces, which aren't just about drinking and dancing, but about connecting and building community? Would you like a Black lesbian and gay centre in 2023?

JF: Definitely,100%. Yeah, I felt like, especially lesbian or sapphic queer, women's spaces don't tend to last long but I think it would do a lot for communities to have a tangible space; something to hold on to. Even just in a sense of knowing that it's there. I think, yeah. Even just in terms of it just existing.

MT: I think it's really powerful that you say that because many of us may never actually go to a physical space like that, but just knowing it exists in the world is affirming for us, I believe. So yeah. I agree with you on that. So you're a community organiser and you put stuff together. How does the work that you do relate to what Yvonne has done in the past and continues to do today? Tell me a little bit about what you do and how that fits in.

JF: So, at the moment, I'm holding these monthly events where people come together and speak about a theme and it's just casual off-the-cuff storytelling work within prepared pieces. The thinking around it was building communities and finding people who have similarities and people who can connect and creating a conversation. And the connection to what Yvonne was doing is that she is creating a space for communities and creating a space for conversation, but in a very different way. Yeah, she was bringing people together to just dance and relax and to chill and let go and a space away from work and all of that sort of stuff to just be free. I think I'm trying to do something similar and creating a space for people to have important conversations and connect with people in a way that they don't at work and find the people to make connections with, because it can be really difficult.

MT: So we can clearly see that whilst lots of things have changed, that some things really still remain the same. And I'm guessing they probably always will. People will always want space to connect, they will always want a safe environment to be with people that are like them, that may be outside of the commercial queer scene. So I think what you're creating is a direct line between what Yvonne did with Sisteramtic and all the other things to where you are today. And I think that's just a wonderful thing. Is there anything else that you think has changed or stayed the same?

JF: I guess, just to reiterate what you were saying, the need for representation and that being really, really affirming.  I think with what Sistermatic was doing, they were creating a space that was just saying that we are here and that we exist. And now even for me, and I'm sure for my peers as well, just knowing that we've been here as much as like, people don't want to admit that and people want to hide the fact that we ever existed. It's important to see that and to see those moments, I guess.

MT: I mean, it sounds like a really affirming and inspiring conversation that you've had with Yvonne and I'm glad you did it. Was there anything that was challenging for you in the conversation or challenged your thinking or your ideas?

JF: I wouldn't say challenging, but I guess I picked up on the fact that there were challenges that Yvonne faced in terms of building kind of collective spaces, there being conflicts between the more academic and political groups, and then those who just wanted to dance I guess. And yeah, having that difficulty between synthesising the two groups and finding common ground, I guess.

MT: I'll be honest with you, those challenges persist to this day. We're always going to have people that want to party and enjoy life and those people on the frontlines trying to create community. And I think the beautiful thing is that we can all coexist together. And that's what makes our community so wonderful.

[Music]

I've been your host, Mark Thompson, the reporter on this episode was Jewel Foster. You can find the picture we've discussed in today's episode and all the images talked about throughout this podcast on Instagram, @BlackAndGayBackInTheDay. And drop us a message if you have something you want to submit to the link will be available in the show notes. 

[Music] 

[Credits]

[Music]

MT: I've been your host, Marc Thompson. The reporter in this episode was Jewel Foster. You can find the picture we've discussed in today's episode and all the images talked about throughout this podcast on Instagram, @BlackAndGayBackInTheDay. And drop us a message if you have something you want to submit to the archive, a link will be available in the show notes. 

[Credits]