Episode 5 - Dennis Carney with Xona

Black and Gay, Back in the Day

Season 1 Episode 5 - “Dennis Carney with Xona”

Date: October 2022

Season: 1

Episode: 3

Presenters: Marc Thompson

Contributors: Dennis Carney, Xona (JO) 

Producers: Shivani Dave, Tash Walker

Assistant Producer: Abi McIntosh

Music: Kemi Oyolede

Artwork: Amaroun

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[Music]

MT: ‘Welcome to Black and Gay, Back in the Day’. We’re bringing to life the archive of images of Black, LGBTQ+ life in Britain from the 1970s to the early ‘00s. I’m Marc Thompson, I’m an activist and health promotion specialist, and I’ve built this archive with the journalist and writer Jason Okundaye.

[Music]

MT: In this episode, we are looking at a photograph that lifts up the beauty of Black love. 

[Camera shutter]

MT: A black and white photo of the head and shoulders of two men, one embracing the other from behind. Both men do not appear to be wearing any clothes in this intimate moment. They both have short dreadlocked hair. We know the man in front to be Dennis Carney, with a pencil-thin moustache, and the man behind to be the poet and writer Essex Hemphill. In this tender moment, Essex presses his lips to the back of Dennis' neck with eyes closed. This tender image was taken by Rotimi Fani-Kayode in Brixton in 1987.

[Music]

MT: As the African-American writer Joseph Beam and the filmmaker and gay rights activist, Marlon Riggs, said ‘Black men loving Black men is a revolutionary act.’ This quote resonates with me so much that I created an art installation at Brixton tube station, centering the statement. I asked Jordan aka the musician Xona, to reflect on the picture from the archive.

[Music]

JO: I have here in front of me the picture of Dennis Carney and Essex Hemphill. Before I get to the picture, the first thing I noticed that strikes a big chord with me is the photographer, who has a Yoruba name, Rotimi Fani-Kayode, which elicits this huge pang of like emotion in me knowing that there are queer Nigerians somewhere. And we existed way before my time. I'm just gonna look him up very quickly, just to see what he was about. Yeah, Nigerian born photographer who moved to England at the age of 12 to escape the Civil War. And I instantly remember that my mum also tried to escape the Civil War. So yeah, it's like a line of connection, showing you that things happen before you and people made steps to make your life a lot more visible, I guess, which is something I'm not very used to. But back to the picture. I think the very, very, very, very, very big thing I see about this is Black intimacy, right. Black queer intimacy, which I might as well be a beginner to. I don't think I've had an intimate experience with someone who looks like me. I think they showcase something that I am working towards just looking at the picture. It's a strong illustration of intimacy, codependency as well.

[Music]

JO: Hi, my name is Jordan Onubogu. I'm a Nigerian-Irish artist under the name, Xona. So the people in the photo, the guy in front is Dennis Carney and the guy behind is Essex Hemphill, who I believe is an American poet who moved over to England. I'm just going to Google Essex and see some of his work because I'm also a writer myself, and I love indulging in Black queer literacy. So I'm just looking through some of his work. Just skimming through his poetry here and he has one called ‘object of desire’. Oh, ‘object lessons’ actually, my mistake. 

It reads: 

‘If I am comfortable

on the pedestal

you are looking at,

if I am indolent and content

to lay here on my stomach,

my determinations

indulged and glistening

in baby oil and sweat,

if I want to be here, a pet,

to be touched, a toy,

if I choose

to be liked in this way,

if I desire to be object,

to be sexuality

in this object way,

by one or two at a time,

for a night or a thousand days,

for money or power,

for the awesome orgasms

to be had, to be coveted,

or for my own selfish wantonness,

for the feeling of being

pleasure, being touched.

The pedestal was here,

so I climbed up.

I located myself.

I appropriated this context.

It was my fantasy,

my desire to do so

and I lie here

on my stomach.

Why are you looking?

What do you wanna do about it?’

[Music]

JO: ‘The pedestal was there. So I climbed up, I located myself’. Reading Essex’ poetry, especially ‘Object Lessons’, I can glean some kind of understanding of the character he was. I refer to him as a force of nature so it will be very interesting to see Dennis’ recant of his character and if he is as indelible as he seems in his poetry. Like, what marks has he made? Is he still as real to him as he was back then?

[Music]

JO: I think one of the reasons I am very keen to speak to Dennis is I feel like this conversation, this topic is coming at a very opportune time as someone who has lived possibly multiple intimate experiences with men both of colour, or just gay men in general. I think there are a lot of things I just want to know about love and the transience of love and if he's learned any lessons, if there’s an absolute truth that you can't deny and you can't get away from and things like that.

[Music]

JO: Hey, Dennis, how are you this fine Tuesday evening?

DC: I’m very well, Jordan, especially seeing your happy, smiley face.

JO:Well, yeah, it's great to finally sit down and do this with you. I'm hoping to learn a lot. I am eager, mostly honoured but very eager to get into the picture. And just see what it was like for you in the path that you have that has brought you here, essentially, and contributing to what you can teach me and all that. How does seeing the picture make you feel?

DC: Oh! How does seeing the picture make me feel? Well, I guess it always makes me feel positive, good inside; warm, fuzzy feelings. 

JO: Rare to find in London!

DC: [Laughs] That picture was taken at a very significant time in my life. 

JO: How old were you?

DC: Gosh, I must have been about 25-26. And I was involved in an organisation called The BLGC - the Black, Lesbian and Gay Centre project - and I was the chair. Whilst I was at The BLGC, BLGC organised the very first tour for Essex Hemphill in the UK and that’s how I got to meet him.

JO: And what was the first meeting like, can you remember?

DC: Oh gosh, I will never forget the first time I met Essex Hemphill forever and ever. I won’t forget because it was one of his first performances. I can’t remember where, but after, there was an after party at Dirg Aaab-Richards house where Essex was staying. And half-way through the evening, Essex and I got talking about one of his poems. And from that very first time that we spoke I don't think we stopped speaking until he went back to the States.

JO: So we start from there and now we're at the picture. How did the picture come about? What was it for?

DC: Okay, well. Rotimi Fani-Kayode was a good friend of mine, and he was an aspiring photographer looking for models. He was, at the time, exploring nude photography. At that time it was really difficult to find people who were willing enough to take their clothes off in front of a camera. So he found me! For me, I’ll never forget, I was absolutely terrified. I was really scared.

JO: Were you scared of the camera or the consequences after the camera?

DC: I think I was more scared with the consequences. I was more scared about that. Rotimi, like I say, was a good friend, I trusted him and all of that. It was more…

JO: How it would live on?

DC: Yeah. See back then, it's a very different world to today. Today, you can just pick up the phone and if you want to see a naked photograph, [clicks fingers] seconds! Whereas back then, it wasn't as easy to achieve before the internet. So yeah, so anyway, Rotimi was looking for models to do this and I said ‘Yeah, Ok’ and I think I brought Essex along and that's how that happened. When that picture was taken, this was probably a week after we met.

JO: Oh, wow! Because I was going to move on to that. I was gonna say that, like there's a lot that is conveyed from this picture and I wanted to know how much time had elapsed?

DC: It was about a week or so.

JO: Time flies when you’re having fun!

DC: And so we were in the throes of romance and it was very intense. 

JO: That definitely comes across.

DC:I think that picture captures that intensity and the strength of feeling on both sides.

JO: There’s something I think, for you, it’s a week, for the rest of us who get to see it now, I remember being at the George Michael commemoration thing in Hampstead Heath maybe a couple of weeks ago, and Ted Brown was giving a talk and he said one of the most soul-stirring things I've heard in a long time and he said, ‘Don't ever feel like there weren't people who were there for you, don't ever feel removed from the people who came before you.’ And for me being queer in Ireland, no one came before you. You're there. You're the first. Not the first but like, you can't see anybody around it. And I see this picture and the first thing that hits me is like, he was right. There's a Nigerian photographer taking the picture. There’s a portrayal of intimacy that you had to go run and look for in like, miniscule places. And it makes you feel like you belong somewhere and you belong to something so like, thank you for that. There'll be a lot of thanking! There'll be a lot of thanking through that. Another big thing I can see through this is, like, intimacy comes across so strong. Was Essex your first foray into…?

DC: No, Essex will always have a very, very special place in my heart. And he’s a man I will never forget until the day I die. And if I'm being really honest, I think I have met anybody who comes even close to the human that Essex was, the incredible human that he was. I never, up until that point, met any man like him, and I don’t think I’ve ever met a man like him since. He really had a massive impact and I would say, in the most part, in a really positive way. I think the thing that I always treasure about Essex is that he really believed in me, he saw me, that’s what I felt like. I felt like he really understood me. I didn’t have to explain, we didn't have to explain. We just connected. It was a real, powerful experience.

JO: I mean, you say this picture is one week old but the overwhelming feeling of codependency of it; the idea that one person's eyes open and the other person is so willingly able to just trust them; like you're being led somewhere is outside race or anything in this human experience. That’s what you’re working towards. One of the three big things that hit me, outside all; at the end of my life, is that I just want the ability to look back on my life and know that someone really saw me, as you say. That I could truly be in another time zone and I know that more than anything in the world, that that man loves me. And I could doubt everything else, but more than anything in the world that man in a different timezone is just like, I’m the first thing on his mind.

DC: I don't think anything more beautiful than what you’ve just shared.

JO: Honest to god, you're living proof that you can find it, or it finds you. But yeah, that's the true gift right at the end of it?

DC: And for the lucky ones, it finds us more than once too.

JO: [Both laugh] I think you said that you ran into Essex at a, maybe I’m paraphrasing, a very transformative part of your life. It was very poignant. What did it feel like loving in that world back then, that didn't really nurture it?

DC: I remember when I was in my early 20s going to parties, birthday parties. And to get in you would have to knock on the door with a secret code. Otherwise the door would not open. That’s the kind of world that I lived in, it felt very hostile, it didn’t feel safe, it felt like I could be attacked at any moment simply because of who I was and who I loved. And that world feels very different now. I can remember when I first realised I was gay, I think it was about 16. Well it was long before then actually, but, consciously I thought, let me go to the library to find out what it is to be gay and what it means.

JO: Did you know what the word was?

DC: Not really, that’s why I went to the library. 

JO: I had the exact same thing!

DC: I went to the library and all I could find was that I was sick; the lowest of the low. That experience set me on a journey actually to where I am today. I think if I'm being honest, because I remember thinking I really didn't want another 16 year old to go through what I went through when I was 16. I didn’t want him to go away from that library hating himself or disbelieving in himself or believing the lies that were being said in these books. And, I have to say, I'm really glad that now a 16 year old can walk into my local library and find, brother to brother, or a whole range of different books by Black gay writers, which wasn’t available to me when I was 16. And those books contain a four letter word that is often said in those books: L, O, V, E. And for me, it was love that brought my awareness of my  sexuality, and I think in the discussions about sexuality and identity and all that kind of stuff, that is one four letter word that is very rarely used when talking about love between men or between women; whatever you might call it; same-gender loving. I think I want to make sure that that four letter word is always present when I think about relationships between men or same-sex relationships. I think for me, it was the love of Essex, for example, that really empowered me in a way that I don’t think anything in my life has empowered me in the same way. And knowing who he was, that he was a very smart thought-ful, sensitive human; that he thought highly of me. This poor little boy from Manchester! 

JO: It’s just completely mind blowing. I was only able to gather up the inner motivation to write an album when I fell in love properly at 28, probably two years ago, and I completely understand what you're saying. And now that it's gone, I’m like ‘what do you do?’ but I know what it’s like to feel like your world is on fire because someone's looking at you, and looking right through you and they see everything and they remember you and they're thinking of you when you're like, not even cognizant of this. That is a gift.

[Music]

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JO: I want to go back very, very briefly and this is my second thanks to you for saying that you didn't want to leave that library at 16 while making sure no other 16 year old felt like that. And there's a thing I read from E.E. Cummings where, ‘you have to say who you are loudly for someone who's lost and someone who's not yet born.’ And for you to have that and still have that effect on me, even now, just seeing the picture and I'm just kind of like ‘you're not alone, it happens’, and because of that, you happened. So thank you for taking up that banner and that crusade, and we don't always get that adulation, the things that we need. We don't do it for the adulation I guess. It should be said that, because you were, I can freely do whatever I want to do.

DC: Well, thank you. I think a lot of younger, Black queer people, particularly, really don't know there was a really vibrant and active Black queer community way back. And so, for example, there wouldn't have been a UK Black Pride in 2022 if there wasn't a BLGC back in 1984, for example, and I think there's a direct lineage between there and where we are today.

JO: I think that is completely true and that it does suck that it takes this long to find it out. I mean, where I grew up in my own world that didn't nurture; I grew up in a world that didn't nurture until I made a new world and went and found my new world. My friends are my world now. I grew up in the middle of Ireland where they  just didn't know what to do with me and I was like ‘I can’t tell my mum’ and at that stage when I found out my reaction was polar opposite, well not polar opposite to yours, but as soon as it happened I was like ‘I know what I am. It’s fine. I won’t ever have to talk about it.’ And I noticed that pattern in everything I do. It leads me to my next question where I'm like, did you feel loved within the queer community? Because I feel maybe my queer community in Ireland, where it was very white-centric, I didn't necessarily feel loved there. I felt like another particular type and I didn’t know how to derive love from that for a long time. So we’ve gone from the world scale to within the queer communities where there was a mixed plethora of people.

DC: I mean, I have to say, in terms of the mainstream gay community, no, I have not felt loved at all. In fact, I will never forget the very first gay venue that I went to back in Manchester; gay bar. And  walked around so scared, in fact, before I went out the house I remember thinking, ‘Dennis, you’ll be fine. They know what discrimination feels like so they won't discriminate against you, you'll be fine, they won’t discriminate against you because you're Black.’ So that's what I told myself to galvanise my confidence and I got there and walked around and around the venue to pluck up the courage and every time I walked around, I saw white men, white gay men going into that venue, no questions asked. And then as soon as I got to the door, ‘Oh you do know it’s a gay club mate?’ Question, question, question!  I was 18,19 and I have lost count in my lifetime of when I’ve gone to mainstream venues, how many times that has happened. That’s just one example of the lack of love I felt in the gay scene and countless examples of that if I think about it. In some ways though, there’s a silver lining or the flip-side of the coin, is that what that experience did; it pushed me much more towards a Black queer community and it pushed me into Black queer activism. Actually, those experiences of racism in the mainstream, especially when I told myself that that shouldn't be there, because they know what discrimination feels like, why would they discriminate against other people?

JO: I would hope that we wouldn’t have to go through it. But it does make us who we are and why; I've had situations where the culture in Ireland around people of colour has shifted a lot, there’s more of us now. But I remember the whole, preference vs I think you’re being racist talk, and you have a room of people saying ‘it’s just my preference’ and then you sound insane in the room when you are like ‘no, it’s not your preference, come on.’ But you definitely read about it and learn about it and you're better off in the end, you truly are better off in the end because you’re more learned about it.

[Music]

JO: What is a truth that you’ve come to accept about love?

DC: I think there was a line that I heard about 20 years ago, a definition of love by a man called Stanley Kelemen and his definition goes like this; ‘to love someone is the willingness to educate them about all of who you are and what you want.’ And when I first heard this I was like, what does this dead old white man know, please! But, I thought about it and I thought about it and I thought, you know what, he's got a point. And I really do subscribe to that definition of love. I think the easy part for me, when it comes to that definition, is educating people about who I am. But the most difficult part of that definition is asking for what I want from the man that I love, or even people that I love, generally speaking; I think that asking for what you want is a real challenge, especially when you've grown up in a world that tells you because of who you are you cannot have that.

JO: I feel like I've said it too many times that it loses value but it was a pleasure. Thank you. It was an honour!

DC: Thank you, Jordan. Thank you for helping me to make a bit more sense of what was going for me back then. It’s not something I’ve talked about if I think about it, certainly not publicly like this. So, thank you, this has been a really, really enjoyable experience and I want you to know that.

[Music]

MT: Hey Jordan, how’re you doing?

JO: Hi! How are you?

MT: I’m really well, it’s great to finally meet you. 

JO: It’s great to meet you too! Thank you for having me. Thank you for this entire experience. It’s been completely rewarding.

MT: Well it’s just wonderful for us that you decided to go on this journey and meet some of our elders and to meet the absolutely amazing, iconic Dennis Carney.

JO:The myth! The character!

MT: So yeah, I’ve known Dennis since I was much younger; we both were! So how was it for you meeting Dennis?

JO: Yeah, as I say it was very, very rewarding, I think he just has a way of illustrating his point so well, and when he speaks you completely believe it. It was like for the first time someone was teaching me; showing me a path. Because I think a lot of my queerness and a lot of my coming-of-age was just me figuring it out for myself. So it's nice to see someone who's much further along, who has some absolute truths that they can pass on to you. I think a lot of his answers were very soul-stirring. So yeah, it was very, very rewarding because I don't think I've ever had a conversation with Black queer elder at all. I don't know any. So it was definitely a once in a lifetime. And I kept saying and I hope that it wasn't trice or any of that, I just kept thanking him so much because I'd never had that experience before. Yeah, it's one I will remember.

MT: It’s amazing that you get to connect to somebody with so much history who is an elder and can pass that stuff on. What were some of the things that you spoke about?

JO: We spoke a lot about love. I remember one of the things I asked him was like, what's an absolute truth you've learned about love and it's like, you don't own anybody. And you have to be comfortable to tell them who you are and also ask for what you want. And he was like, the longer you live, the more true that statement will become. And I look forward to it. I realised elements of my life where I can't do that yet. And it's just nice that there's some things that are absolute truths that someone is passing on to you, and maybe it makes the journey a lot less arduous. Yeah, I enjoyed how he talked about how real Essex is to him. Like all these years later, it's like a flagship or something; it's still so indelible in his life. 

MT: One of the things I think is interesting about love and relationships, particularly for Black queer men, is very often we're not taught that. And part of the wonderful stuff around Essex’ work alongside the collective of Joseph Beam and Marlon Riggs was pushing this idea of Black men loving Black men as a revolutionary act. Was that talked about in your conversation?

JO: I think there was a moment I asked him; I tried to talk about the tiers of love. How did you feel love from the world around you? How did you feel love within the community? Because, for me, I would have had to go find elements of it in places but never really see myself reflected. And it was really interesting just seeing how he navigated all of that and how he found a great Black queer love at such a young age. And seeing that, someone like me wishes that they saw that when they were much younger, when they were like 10, 11, 12. So they knew that they belonged to something, as opposed to I, you know, my first representation of queerness was like Desperate Housewives and the gay couple in there. And you know, I'm like, I'm gay, but I'm not white! So I can kind of take; I can glean something from here. It was good to see that  even all the way back then that was still a thing. That was a tale as old as time, or whatever. I don't know. It's just it just made us very real. For me and validated me in some way. 

MT: I mean, absolutely. You know, when I was growing up, I didn't see those images at all. And so we had to kind of dream, imagine!

JO: It’s like your brain that wasn't filled out properly yet. Like maybe you just never looked at something that was desirable or like even from your community. So I shudder to think of ways that affected me in my formative periods. And sometimes I kind of feel like I'm trying to unlearn and move forward. So this conversation was rewarding, even just like stuff I sit with and in time, kind of realise, very grateful.

MT: So you spoke about growing up and not seeing images like you've seen in the archive today. Has anything changed today?

JO: Just seeing the picture originally, was just something that was unlocked in me, and maybe it'll take time for me to elaborate on what the feeling is. I've never had a Black queer relationship, like not a partner. I was never with a Black person until  2016 and I've been an active gay person since like 2010. So it wasn't until I visited London and saw stuff like that and opened myself up to it because where I grew up was very, very burgeoning and it's opening up in its views and all of that, but it just wasn't something that was available to me. But seeing history and seeing that it existed before you came makes you feel like you belong to something and you're standing on the shoulders of people who have worked for you. I never really felt like that; I just felt like an outsider on everything. Like I don't feel that connected to my Nigerian ancestry, I don't see because I see anyone who is like me. It’s a thing that you carry around but never really vocalise. So seeing that picture of them is just something that you just need to see. Sometimes you don't need to explain it, you just need to see it to know that like it happened, and you aren't alone. So that's what is starting to change for me, I have queer friends, Black queer friends that were in Black relationships and it just unlocked something and I'm like, just seeing it is the remedy itself.

MT: There’s lots of talk about ‘love is love’ and ‘love wins’; those catchphrases. You know, I'm a great believer in celebrating Black love. Wherever that shows up. I’m really glad this picture demonstrates that and it had an impact on you. How is that gonna try to change the way that you write the way that you create going forward?

JO: I think I’m waiting to see. But learning about his relationship with Essex and how it's so real and so strong to him. There was something very endearing knowing that the loves that I've had in the past, I fear I will forget them, I always fear that like, it's passing. It won't live on as long as possible. But I look forward to the lessons and I look forward to maybe throwing myself more deeply into it and asking questions, and telling them what I want and not being afraid to show them fully what I'm about. Because I think in my past three relationships, there's a line I wrote recently where I was like, ‘I always have to fold half of me away to make sure that you'll stay’ and that's something I always, always do because I feel like if people knew maybe 60% of what I was comfortable with, whether it's like showing them my family or showing them my real accent or like telling them about how I got to Europe or any of that. Talking to him made me understand that when you find someone who totally loves you, most stuff will be just accepted anyway, because you do it to other people. So you're not alone. Like someone will accept you. And it'll be wonderful when that happens. So, yeah, that will definitely influence my writing.

MT: I mean, it sounds like a great conversation. It was enlightening and inspired you. Was there anything that you found challenging about the conversation at all?

JO: Not challenging. I think the only time we ever had it was me trying to navigate my relationship with my mother, that's like the biggest thing I've done this year. There wasn't anything I could use. But at least it shows not all of us are damned for estrangement from our families. So that was good to see. I think that would be the only thing where I know that my reality is that I’m literally facing an immovable object. I cannot get around it. I wish there was someone who could just tell me what to do. So yeah, that was the only thing. I wouldn't say it was difficult.  I walked away from it, knowing that there are families that are happy and maybe that should inform my psyche that there is hope. It's not impossible for PLC parents, really, just parents, to accept their kids. Yeah, I'll always put a spin on something. But yeah, that was definitely maybe the only part of it that we came at differently.

MT:That's the beauty of these intergenerational conversations right? We are bringing different parts of ourselves, these different experiences which are separated sometimes by decades, but clearly there's deep similarity between the two of you. And if you need a mum to have a chat with, my mum is for hire, she’s really good at that kind of stuff. She’s talked to lots of Black mums telling them to fix up! 

JO: Yeah, honestly, that was what was advised to me. My therapist was just like ‘she needs someone like her to explain to her, because you have to understand that it's intergenerational and she’s different.’ So, yeah!

MT: Mum’s for hire!

JO: Mum’s for hire! [Both laugh]

MT: Jordan, it’s been so incredible to talk to you and thank you so much for sharing yourself and your time with Dennis, I really appreciate it.

JO: Thank you so much.

[Music]

MT:I've been your host, Marc Thompson. The reporter in this episode was Jordan, aka, Xona. You can find the picture we've discussed in today's episode and all the images talked about throughout this podcast on Instagram, @BlackAndGayBackInTheDay. And drop us a message if you have something you want to submit to the link will be available in the show notes. 

[Music]

MT: I've been your host, Marc Thompson. The reporter in this episode was Jordan, a.k.a musician Xona. You can find the picture we've discussed in today's episode and all the images talked about throughout this podcast on Instagram, @BlackAndGayBackInTheDay. And drop us a message if you have something you want to submit to the archive, a link will be available in the show notes. 

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