Episode 10 - UK Black Pride with Nic Farmer

Black and Gay, Back in the Day

Season 1 Episode 10 - “UK Black Pride with Nic Farmer”

Date: 6.12.22

Season: 1

Episode: 10

Presenters: Marc Thompson

Contributors: Nic Farmer

Producers: Shivani Dave, Tash Walker

Assistant Producer: Abi McIntosh

Music: Kemi Oyolede

Artwork: Amaroun

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[Music]

MT: ‘Welcome to Black and Gay, Back in the Day’. We’re bringing to life the archive of images of Black, LGBTQ+ life in Britain from the 1970s to the early ‘00s. I’m Marc Thompson, I’m an activist and health promotion specialist, and I’ve built this archive with the journalist and writer Jason Okundaye.

[Music]

MT: In this episode we're looking at a photograph of someone on a journey to celebrate their identity.

[Camera shutter]

MT: A colour photograph of a man sitting on a red metal bench, his legs crossed, his right arm resting across his body. He is holding a Black tote bag with a gold sequined detail. It looks hot. He is wearing red shorts, a multicoloured t-shirt with green, purple, orange and red stripes. He completes the look with iconic heart shaped sunglasses and a beaded choker. We know the man to be David McAlmont on his way to London Pride in 1992.

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MT: Taking up space as a Black LGBTQ+ person can be radical. It's important to understand and embrace all elements of our identity. Now in London, there are a few places that allow us to do that. Nic Farmer is transporting us to one of those spaces.

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[Busy street party sounds]

NF: Oh my gosh, happiness, joy, and styling now! I'm looking at a photo of David's McAlmont on his way to London Pride in 1992. Black Pride wasn't even a thing then! It's just absolutely amazing to see that level of happiness in this one photo can tell a million stories. I can definitely resonate with David here. It took me a long journey to get here from Leister today. And to see them waiting to go to London Pride is definitely a moment I had today when I was waiting on that train to get here, anxious but ready to have a good time and feel safe in a space like UK Black Pride. 

And the scenes are absolutely amazing. Everyone looks great. They have shown out today! I'm here with some friends. I can see some amazing stalls, people are selling things. They're talking about amazing institutions. We've also got the big UK Black Pride sign. There's loads of different flags. That's so cool. I love to see that! We've also got music in the background. Hearing a bit of Vybz Kartel, I love them classic bashment tunes. 

The trip from Leicester was tiring, but I'm glad that I'm here. I'm buzzing. My name is Nic, my pronouns are they/he and I'm a content creator. 

UK Black Pride has always been a very special place to me, especially since we've had the pandemic and not being able to have a safe space for Black individuals, people of colour, to come together and fight and celebrate and love each other as freely as they can. You don't get many spaces like this in the world and to have one of these spaces in London, in the UK, is so, so important. I'm so glad that I've been able to see how UK Black Pride has evolved. And that people are so comfortable to come here and just be themselves. It's not often that you get this. And so, this does mean a lot to me; to just see everyone being themselves, being unapologetic. It really is magical. And because of these magical, magical moments, I need to know how other people are feeling today. 

[Busy street party sounds]

NF: Hey, would you like to be part of a podcast called Black and Gay, Back in the Day? I would love to interview you!

D: Why are you asking me? Do I look like I’m from back in the day? [Laughs]

NF: No! Would you like to be interviewed?

D: Go on then!

NF: If you could just introduce yourself, your name, your pronouns, where you’re from?

D: Hi, my name is Dennis. My pronouns are he/him, and I live in Brixton, the capital of Black Britain.

NF: Amazing. Thank you. And what does it mean to be here today for UK Black Pride?

D: What does it mean to be at Black Gay Pride? It's funny because I was with some friends and when we arrived I was saying to them, I remember the first Black gay club I went to 40 years ago, and the dance floor was smaller than my living room. And to think, from 40 years ago to this just blows my mind when I think about that, you know? And so yeah, so Black gay Pride, I guess what that gives me is a sense of Pride, the fact that the community has developed and grown enough; that we can be having a celebration in one of the most fantastic venues in London, it's just mind blowing to me. And the fact that we're all together in community, we’re about love and it's good to be able to meet in a space where that's happening.

[Street sounds]

NF: Oh my gosh, guys, I just saw Tanya Compas, literally fangirling right now. I'm so excited to see the content creators, the tech talkers. Just the activists in this space today, there will be a lot of squealing. So sorry, headphone users. 

Okay. on the hunt for some people!

E: My name is Ebony, I'm 28. My pronouns are they/them, and I'm from Leister.

NF: So what does being at Pride mean to you?

E: I think for me, especially because it's my first Black Pride. It's nice that there is a space for Black people to come together and celebrate that, you know, sometimes it's difficult to feel like you're crossing over lines, and what side of the fence you sit on here but here, it's very much all encompassing of who you are. So I think to me, it's nice to have that space where I can be both as openly and happily as I need to be. 

NF: Yeah. And I remember you saying that you're from Leicester, how does it feel? What were the differences? What are you noticing coming to London today and being at Black Pride? And coming from Leicester today; that journey.

E: So I'm from London originally, I haven't been back in a few years. So it's definitely a nice shock to see not just how busy it is, but also, like the space that we're in. This was the Olympic Park, 10 years ago this was the space of one of the biggest proudest moments of Britain. So for Black Pride to be here, it encapsulates that Black people are part of that Pride and should be able to take up space in a place like this.

NF: Oh my gosh! Over there! I think that's Marc Thompson. He's the person who set up the Instagram account, Black and Gay, Back in the Day. Let's go over there to talk to him now!

MT: Hi, Nic. How are you doing?

NF: I'm good. How are you?

MT: I'm good. I mean, it is UK Black Pride. How are you feeling?

NF: I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good; great atmosphere today. What about you?

MT: I'm working really hard. It's really, really warm. But the atmosphere is amazing. It's so beautiful to see so many people. Lady Phil's just gone, so it's a good buzz! It's just starting, it's just warming up. What are you looking forward to? What are you doing?

NF: I'm just looking around the stalls, you know, trying to get what everyone else's reactions are to Black Pride today. You know, it's been a couple of years. So it's great to see so many people out here today. 

MT: All right, well, cool. So you go and do that, there is loads to see, go and enjoy it and engage in it. And let's catch up and talk a bit more later!

NF: Definitely. 

MT: Cheers. Bye.

NF:  So we've got some tents over here. It seems as though they're maybe, I don't even know what's going on. They have a free monkey pox vaccine store here. That's absolutely amazing.

[Busy street party sounds]

NF: We’ve got some talks. I think also one thing that's so important about Pride is, yeah, we can come to celebrate and dance but also education and learn. And the fact that we have all this space with the Olympic Park just means that more people can be educated and more people can learn about the issues that are going on with the community. And that's just brilliant.

M: Hi, I'm Mwanso, I use she/her pronouns and I'm from Manchester.

NF: Amazing. And what does it mean to be a Black Pride today?

M: What does it mean? Being at Black Pride is important to me because it symbolises community, specifically Black queer community. This is the community that makes me feel comfortable. That makes me feel inspired to do what I do on a daily basis and it's about family for me so that's why I'm here today.

[Busy street party sounds]

NF: The outfits today are absolutely fantabulous! I’m seeing sparkles; I’m seeing glitter. 

 I’m trying to dress like that. Oh! They’ve got a grill and burrito! Goodness me, like, don't make me hungry today! Are the funds in the bank gonna allow me to eat all of this food? Can I chop? I don't even know!

[Busy street party sounds]

NF: Hi. Yes, exactly would you like to be interviewed for the podcast, Black and Gay, Back in the Day?

O: Oh it’s voice! So I don’t have to worry about how I look! [Laughs]

NF: You look great though!

O: Hello, I’m Olalade, Yoruba name. The owner of wealth has arrived here at Black Pride 2022. Yeah.

NF: Nice to meet you. And what exactly does it mean to you today to be here at UK Black

Pride?

O: It means I get to celebrate other beautiful melanated people, it means I get to give lots of extra time that I normally don't have, normally in my regular day to day life, to actually engage in what other people are doing, what their passion is,  what their business is about. And to connect. But yes, a lot about celebrating definitely.

K: I’m Kellis, she/her. And I've come from Bristol today. 

NF: Amazing. Did you travel today?

K: I've been here since Friday!

NF: That’s good, that means less stress; it means less stress. So what does it mean to us today to be here at Black Pride?

K: I love Black Pride. And it's my chance to be in the majority and to share with other people, my culture, my music, and just to kind of be Black, out and gay!

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MT: Hey, Nic, good to see you again. 

NF: Good to see you. 

MT: Last time I saw you, it was at UK Black Pride. And now I'm at home on Zoom and you're at home in your room on Zoom as well. But it's good to connect with you again. So just so you know, to just make a real apology in advance because I'm at home, my dog is here and he's scrambling around a bit and he's chewing on the stick just to keep him distracted. So if you do hear in the background, that's just Bo being Bo. So would you like to see him, as he's here?

NF: I would love to see him. Yeah!

MT: There you go, Bo. 

NF: What a cutie! Oh my god.

MT: Yeah, he's a bit of a number.

NF: Do you know what's so weird that my aunt had the exact same dog also called Bo, Bowie. And she passed away so when you literally showed me the dog and he was like, his name is Bo. I was like, crazy! The universe.

MT: I mean, we just saw each other at UK Black Pride. What an amazing day. How was it for you?

NF: Do you know what, it was absolute vibes! I had an amazing time. An amazing time. Yeah. What about yourself?

MT: I had a really good time. I was really busy working. So I didn't kind of get to go to the stage and see the performances. But just being in that atmosphere with queer people of colour engaging in, particularly the community space, was really important for me. So yeah, I had a really good, hot day. But a really good day. hot and dusty.

NF: Hot and dusty. Yeah, I still haven't got my shoes clean. The dust is still there. Yeah.

MT: Nobody can ever laugh at my crocs again, because trust me, they just came off and got wiped down and they were good to go. So listen, it is so good to reconnect with you again, and just have a conversation about, you know, some of the stuff that you saw there. But Nic, I just want to kick off by saying, how important is it to you that we have a UK Black Pride?

NF: For me, it's so important. We need spaces as people of colour and Black people, we need our own spaces to feel free. Many times within queer spaces, people of colour do not always feel safe. And they should, they should be able to feel safe in these spaces, but they don't. And so for a space like UK Black Pride to be created, where an individual can be free. 100% themselves is so, so important. And it's something that everyone should feel. And so the fact that this space has now been created, or it has been created for so many years, is a wonderful thing to see.

MT: Yeah, I was saying to somebody a couple of days ago that the fact that it's now in August rather than in Pride Month is really great, that we're taking up that space. And if we think about intersectionality, the fact that UK Black Pride now sits after London Pride. And then before the Notting Hill Carnival, Black queer people, we get to celebrate like throughout all of summer! That’s dope, right?

NF: It's absolutely amazing. And you know, I hadn't even made that distinction. And I think it's so important because we need these places to celebrate. And to be able to continue experiencing joy throughout summer is one amazing thing. It transitions and shows all of our culture in one, throughout the summer, which is absolutely great.

MT: And I totally agree with you,  that it is about celebration, and long may that continue and let it grow and grow and grow. But thinking about growth, UK Black Pride is in London, you know, people have to travel down. You're not based in London. I mean, do you wish that there was something like that where you are? And in other spaces around the country? How do we square that circle?

NF: Yeah, definitely, I think, you know, London being the capital, it is always going to be a space that is buzzing, and full of life. But there are other communities within the UK, we have Birmingham, we have Manchester. These are the spaces where queer people of colour have been for many, many years. And I know that there are organisations that are doing the work to create those safe spaces, but there's not enough. If we were able to branch out slightly more, I mean, you know, selfishly moving to the Midlands, it would be nice to have more events for queer people of colour up North. But I know that these spaces are slowly forming. And it would definitely mean a lot to those who cannot always travel down to London, and are not living in areas that aren't central, to be able to find queer joy and queer community in the places that they live already, if it's not the capital.

MT: And I think one of the great things about that is, we have to remember that UK Black Pride didn't happen overnight. It's been nearly 18 years to get to probably what is one of the biggest festivals for Black queer people, queer people of colour, globally, you know, and it occupies a very special space. So I hope that in the future, we do see UK Black Pride in Manchester, in Leicester, in Leeds, in Glasgow, even in Wales. Wherever there are Black folk, we should be celebrating UK Black Pride. And that leads me to think, you know, how do you feel about having to travel down to the spaces to be with community?

NF: Being brought up actually in London, it does just feel like coming back home, and being familiar with the streets of London. But at the same time, in the same breath, it is frustrating that I have to travel in order to find the community that can so easily be found within London. It's like a double edged sword for me. I love London, I love what comes with it, I love the culture. But the fact that sometimes I can't just, you know, go down the road. And there's I don't investor, there's not like a Gay Village that maybe you'll have in Manchester or Soho, we don't, it's small, we don't have those phases. So it would be nice to be able to just, you know, walk across, I don't know, go to the centre, and be able to find the space that I know I fit 100% in. But the fact that those spaces are created in different cities, makes it worth it. It does it makes it worth it for the community.

MT: Can you jump on a bus or wherever, a train, and go to Manchester and you're in a Black queer club, like we'd go to Queer Bruk in London or pussy palace?

NF: No. Oh my god, I really wish there was! Do you know what, I probably just don't know about them. So if I want to go to a predominantly queer Black event, I know I'm going to London, when I'm trying to shake a leg.

MT: So usually Nic, at this point, I would say you know, Uncle Marc would kick into gear and say, ‘Well, why are you not creating those spaces?’ But before that, why do you think there aren’t the spaces to party, to socialise outside of London as they are in London? What do you think that is about?

NF: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there are individuals or young people, I mentioned BlaqUK before, trying to squeeze into those spaces and trying to squeeze into those institutions. I think it's really hard when you're outside of London to cultivate or curate specific spaces, like queer, queer Black spaces. When you are still met with discrimination and racism, I think it's really hard to break into the club scene and create your own space as a person of colour up North. And as once again, BlaqUK, it's young individuals, it's sometimes very hard to be taken seriously. Even if you know exactly what you're talking about. It's about perception, and how people perceive you, and how capable they perceive you to be in marketing something. And it's that idea. I mean, even I know, I have a lot of experience working in universities, and creating student nights for specific individuals and the backlash that I get or the pushback that I get from those institutions, and those managers who tell us, you know, there's just not demand for it. Otherwise, we would have done it already. And it's like, no, you just don't want to go out of your way to create something because you're not in those spaces. And it doesn't matter whether there are 5,10 individuals, it will impact them in some way. And I think I think that's, I think that is part of the problem. They don't want to take a chance on something that they don't see is viable or profitable, when really they just don't have an in in the market.

MT: Yeah, there's an interesting conversation to be had, isn't there, that right now we are so able to connect online, which has been fantastic for queer people, you know, particularly those who might be isolated or struggling, or have no connection at all. But nothing beats in real life. Nothing beats connection, seeing people face to face, which I think is truly wonderful. And I mean, you got to speak to lots of people at UK Black Pride, how was it hearing from all those people? And how did that impact on you and your work going forward?

NF: You know, it was really refreshing. Being in the pandemic and not always being able to find community, Black queer community, it was nice to speak to individuals intergenerationally those who have been here for many years, going to Black Pride, being able to go to events, long before I was born. But also,  individuals of my age, may be experiencing things for the first time. That was also really beautiful to see and to understand and hear how things may have changed over the ages, or what it means or what it still means to each individual, regardless of their age, was a really beautiful thing.

MT: What was your main takeaway out of all the people that you spoke to? I mean, is there one moment that sticks out in your mind?

NF: Actually, one time I got corrected, and I was like, Oh, that was interesting.

MT: Do you want to tell us more about that?

NF: Oh, yeah. Okay. So one individual was talking about how, one of the reasons why they love coming to Black Pride was about community. And I made a comment about how it's great that  they're able to network and find those spaces where they can connect with people professionally. And they stopped me and were just like, ‘No, they don't believe in the word network.’ Because for them, it's about sincerity. And for them,  they genuinely want to connect with individuals, and to understand the work that they are doing. And it made me think about people's intentions, in a professional sense. And even though we're Black Pride, we look at it, mostly with community and fun and joy, there is the opportunity to connect with individuals on a professional level. And so that distinction between using the word ‘network’ but sincerity in you know, this is a safe space, and therefore, your intentions must always be pure. I think I did actually appreciate that. That accountability and being like, ‘hold up!’ No, I don't actually believe in the word network, especially because of the space that we were in, so that was probably one of the standout moments because I appreciated the correction.

MT: Yeah. And has that changed your view on going to UK Black Pride to network?

NF: You know, it actually has. Like I said, coming out of a pandemic, I was just there ready to enjoy, but I did also see it as an opportunity to talk to people and connect in ways maybe I hadn't done before. So yeah, it definitely did change my mind. But also they're all for good reason, you know, all for good reason.

MT: And what are you looking forward to, say next year at UK Black Pride? So It's grown, it's got bigger and everything, is there anything you'd like to add to it? Anything you think, wow, you know, this would make it even better?

NF: When someone comes from up North or wherever, to London, and they are in these spaces, they may be overwhelmed with joy and emotion, because it's a momentous occasion. But then at the same time, there is the expectation that you are walking into a Black space, and that you are walking into a space that is 100% safe. So I'm at Stratford International with my friend, and we're walking up the escalator. I've got a baseball cap on, and I get a tap from a white lady behind me and she goes, ‘Are you going to Pride?’ And I turned around, and I looked at her and I say, ‘oh, yeah, I'm going, I'm going to Pride.’ And she's like,’ Oh, great. I just saw your pink hair. So I assumed that you'd be going.’ I went, ‘Yeah, I know.’ Like, ‘oh, I don't know the way would you be able to direct us?’ I was like, ‘okay, yeah, that's great. Cool.’ So we got up to the escalator. And she says to me, ‘oh, yeah, I can't wait to go.’ And I said, ‘I've just got to wait for my friend.’ And they were like, ‘okay, cool. We'll leave. And we'll see you up there. We'll see you at Pride.’ I was like, ‘Yeah, okay, leave’. And then she misgendered me. And I thought, okay, so there's two white women who have assumed that I'm going to Pride. They've called it Pride, not Black Pride, that got on my nerves. But also, they've misgendered me and assumed. 

So you're going to a queer event, you've seen an individual and you've assumed their gender. And you've also generalised the occasion, by calling it Pride. And that is, I think, the issue that I had. I've come all this way to an event that I have loved and enjoyed for many, many years. And the moment that I get to the venue, I'm already met with the exact thing that I thought I wouldn't encounter. That is the issue. And although that was the only thing that happened, the only event that made me feel one way, it does get me thinking about the consciousness that it takes for allies, or just other queer individuals, to come to a space and not check and realise their privilege in a space that was not made for them in the first place.

MT: Somebody asked me an interesting question yesterday, which has come up a few times: are white people allowed at Black Pride? And my response, my immediate quip was white people are allowed anywhere they want to, but we know that already, because of colonialism; slavery. However, my response is: of course, white folk, anybody is welcome at UK Black Pride at any event, as long as your intention when you're there and your understanding is that this is a safe space, which is created for and by us. If your attendance is to be a participant, to celebrate, to be part of that joy, not to be an observer, not to be somebody that fetishizes the event, not somebody that asks crazy questions, but somebody who's there to be in the mix. You know, we live in a diverse country, we are not the majority of this population, no matter how many of us have mixed friendship groups, I want my white friends to be able to come to UK Black Pride, and enjoy it with me because they should be able to, but I know that when you're coming, you're respectful, you're understanding what that space is about, and you're bringing the love with you. That's what it should be about. But my final point on that is that this is what happens when you're successful. You know, when we become mainstream. And if we can look at say, Soho in central London, which is our Gay Village, or the Gay Village in Manchester, you know, these were uniquely queer, predominantly gay spaces in terms of overwhelmingly taken up by cis gendered gay men for many, many years. And as we become more accepted, as we become on TV, and people like us, you know, I'm your gay best friend; then it's going to happen that people are going to come into those spaces. And I think that’s what happens with UK Black Pride, we look at the ball scene, the voguing scene, something that was incredibly underground. Great thing, you know, but we are successful. And it's what happens when you step into the mainstream.

NF: Yeah. One of the things that I've loved about previous Black Prides is the community and how intimate it can be and also how easy it is to speak to your neighbour beside you, have a conversation, and create a connection. And I felt like this year, that may have been missing slightly.

I loved how big it was, it meant that more people could attend. It meant that there was more space to communicate and talk to people and go to stalls and dance in a separate area. That was absolutely amazing. But something about that community, intimate feel was missing.

I think that's really important for Black Pride is that that's one thing that I think was always guaranteed that no matter where it was, you would find a family. You will find family, just a stranger next to you. By the end of Black Pride, they're your family, your friends; you've exchanged details and I think that was slightly missing this year because of how big it was.

And I think that made it harder to add new people to the chosen family this year.

Which I wish I did a bit more of. But yes, I think it's amazing that we're able to create a space where more individuals are able to attend, but at the same time it did feel a bit like I wish that intimate feel was still there.

MT: Thank you for that. Yeah, I mean, I let's hope that you know, going forward we can all do stuff as a community because it is our festival, right? We all have some ownership of it. So let's hope that going forward in the future, we can all make that change and find ways to create those spaces within that wonderful space that exists for us. But I just really hope that younger folk like you who are doing this work, but also not in the big city in London, find ways to connect with each other in your regions, and to continue to build on and create stuff locally, because we are like a tree. Right? We have lots and lots of branches, and it's fun to see those branches across the UK flourish and grow.

NF: Yeah, me too. 

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MT: I've been your host, Marc Thompson. The reporter in this episode was Nic Farmer. You can find the picture we've discussed in today's episode and all the images talked about throughout this podcast on Instagram, @BlackAndGayBackInTheDay. And drop us a message if you have something you want to submit to the archive, a link will be available in the show notes. 

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