Episode 6 - Ain Bailey and Marilyn Clarke with Chantelle Ayanna

Black and Gay, Back in the Day

Season 1 Episode 6 - “Ain Bailey and Marilyn Clarke with Chantelle Ayanna”

Date: October 2022

Season: 1

Episode: 6

Presenters: Marc Thompson

Contributors: Ain Bailey, Marilyn Clarke, Chantelle Ayanna

Producers: Shivani Dave, Tash Walker

Assistant Producer: Abi McIntosh

Music: Kemi Oyolede

Artwork: Amaroun

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[Music]

MT: ‘Welcome to Black and Gay, Back in the Day’. We’re bringing to life the archive of images of Black, LGBTQ+ life in Britain from the 1970s to the early ‘00s. I’m Marc Thompson, I’m an activist and health promotion specialist, and I’ve built this archive with the journalist and writer Jason Okundaye.

[Music]

MT: In this episode, we are looking at a photograph that takes us back to the buzzing club scene of the ‘90s.

[Camera shutter]

MT: A colour photograph of two women in a DJ booth, hugging each other and looking gleeful as they face the camera. There are records to the left of them and on the table in front. The woman on the left, who we know to be Marilyn Clark, is smiling, wearing a pale blue vest and short hair. Her right hand rests on some records just next to a glass of red wine. The woman on the right, who we know to be Ain Bailey, has Afro hair and her lips are pursed. She's wearing silver hoop earrings and a long sleeve blue camo pattern top. Behind them is a purple wall. The photograph was taken by Parminder Sekhon at the launch night of Precious Brown, a Black queer women's club night at the Candy Bar in SoHo in 1997.

[Music]

MT: Soho looks mad different today than it did in the 1990s. For this episode, DJ and producer, Chantelle Ayana is taking us back in time and reopening those doors to the Candy Bar, specifically to precious Brown, the women centred Black queer club.

[Music]

CA: So I'm opening up this photo in front of me. It's a picture in front of me of Ain and Marilyn. And it's the launch night of Precious Brown at Candy Bar in 1997. I'm seeing smiling faces, I'm seeing vinyl, I'm seeing some camo which I really like; headphones, I feel like this is probably, in the flow of the night maybe. Yes, a wonderful photo and it definitely brings that feeling of the glee that you feel when you've created something and you're seeing something come to life and you're just enjoying yourself.

[Music]

CA: My name is Chantelle, I'm a DJ and producer from South-east London and my pronouns are she/her. So right now I'm about to go to 4 Carlisle Street, where Candy Bar was and this picture would have been taken. And yeah, just have a look around where this all would have been going on. This is great Chapel Street, so I’m turning on to Carlisle Street now. Pretty tall buildings here and yes, got that proper Soho feeling; a little bit of bustle. And now we're coming up to number 8 Carlisle Streets; so that’s 8, 7, 6. So this one here must have been Candy Bar. Number 4, the end here. So number 4 Carlisle Street was Candy Bar. And it's now Vanity, which is a gentlemen's club. Yes, kind of strange. I remember actually, when I was about 15, it's my first London Pride. I tried to go and desperately wanted to go into Candy but I was too young. The fact that it is now a gentlemen's club versus a lesbian bar is like diametric opposites, I guess. But yeah, I think it says a lot about London and about the culture and how badly it's actually been preserved, in a way. So right now I'm imagining what Precious Brown 1997 hosted by Ain and Marilyn and what kind of feeling I'd be having standing outside of here hearing that that sound when you're just outside of a venue and you hear that pulse of the bass and you're getting excited or ready to get inside and see who's there, see what's being played, get yourself a drink if you drink, and yeah, catch a vibe! I can imagine there being a queue of gorgeous, gorgeous Black women standing outside of here. Just that intensity of knowing that you're going into a space that is pretty rare actually in London and especially in that time. So yeah, this is where it was all happening!

[Street sounds]

CA: Hello, Ain and Marilyn. 

AB: Enchanté.

CA: Proper South London girl name!

AB: I’m Ain, also from South London, an artist, composer, DJ.

MC: I’m Marilyn, I’m a record collector, I wouldn’t say I'm a DJ anymore. Rarely DJing these days but definitely collected vinyl.

CA: At the moment I've got a photo in front of me from the launch of Precious Brown at Candy Bar in 1997 I think it was.

MC: Yeah. Sounds about right.

CA: So seeing this picture, how does it make you feel?

MC: Fabulous! Yeah, it was a good time!

AB: Great memories. Yeah. Fun time. Yeah, for sure.

MC: It was a night of eclectic music. And it was pretty much for anybody who wanted to come. But obviously lots of people who came were Black and brown folk. But we did open it. It was open to anybody.

AB: But yeah, very welcoming, in terms of other communities. Open Space; welcome space.

CA: How old are you guys in this photo? It just says it in the prompt, I was going to say that I never ask, but…

AB: [All laugh] I have no idea, ‘97 [counting] thirty-something.

MC: Yeah, early thirties.

CA: Still looking good, both of you. So how did you both feel in that moment? Like the moment this picture was taken? What was going through your mind?

CA: We probably had some vodka.

MC: We probably had a few drinks. We were very happy. 

AB: It was probably towards the end of the night, right? It could have been at the beginning or the end. I can’t remember at which point. 

CA: I feel like this is like a post-set or mid-set picture.

AB: Because we do have the records out. 

MC: We look like we’re in the flow!

CA: So the launch night, how did it go? How did you go about securing the space? How did you plan who you wanted to invite? How did you do tickets? Like how did that work then?

MC: Were we that organised?

AB: We were! We did have somebody on the door 

MC: And we did have flyers!

Both: we had amazing flyers!

CA: What were the flyers like?

AB: They were like bookmarks.

MC: And we nicked images of fabulous looking women from magazines. Although one of them was by my friend. Nina. Did she do the first one? It’s a drawing?

AB: Yeah!

MC: That was great. We lost them all.

CA: Is that drawing, the blue one? 

MC: Have you seen it?

AB: Yeah, there is a blue one. 

MC: There was a lilac one, a brown one and an orange one. Yeah. They’re amazing. I really wish I had them all. 

AB: Me too. The full set would’ve been nice.

CA: That's awesome. How did Precious Brown as a name come to fruition? I want to know!

MC: No recollection of it whatsoever! [Laughs]

AB: How did we come up with Precious Brown? What a question!

CA: Because it feels like quite a seductive name.

AB: I know, we obviously wanted a woman’s name. We were keen to have a woman’s name. But I don’t know how we then decided or agreed on Precious Brown or how we got to that.

MC: Because we didn't want it to be also, we called ourselves Black girls, presents, because that was a riff on this other thing, Two Black Boys. But I literally don't remember how we came? I think we just wanted something that was a bit odd, even. But it does sound a bit different. And also because of the imagery as well. I think it just tied in really nicely. I literally have no recollection of how we chose the name.

AB: I mean, if you've looked at it, you would probably think ‘oh, you might have been influenced by blaxploitation’, but I don't think that was what we were looking at or even referencing as such.

MC: But we could have also just done a mash-up of names. 

CA: Do you feel like Precious Brown is a character? Or is it just the name of the night? Or is it like an ethos?

MC: I think it was definitely an ethos. If you came to our club, you'd get everything. I don’t necessarily know in what order, or where it came from, or who’d be spinning. Because also the way that we played, it was like four hours, five hours, so we’d alternate, like an hour each. So it wasn't just like, ‘you do the warm up and I’ll do the main set’. Which was also a really nice way of playing! Because I think also, we maybe also had slightly different friends who had different tastes.

CA: Where did those tastes vary across? Is there a spectrum of music that you…?

MC: I think now, I still don’t like a lot of music you buy! [All laugh] I still don’t get Paul Weller!

AB: I never played any! I would not have got away with that one!

? - I don’t know. Music is so personal, isn’t it. But I think, we didn’t ever play anything and the other person was like ‘you better get that off the decks!’ And also, we were playing vinyl back in the day. God Bless them, Kim Lucas, I couldn’t mix and she used to let me practise on her decks. 

CA: That’s where I started as well.

MC: It was cool. Kim Lucas, I don’t know where she is now. But it was revolutionary for its time actually because obviously there had been queer bars for women, but that one, it felt like there were also lots of other Black nights there actually. 

CA: That's cool. I didn't even know that.

MC - There was definitely RnB, Kinky D. There were a few, letting people do stuff there, that was really nice.

CA: And at the time, that was pretty rare?

MC: They didn’t charge us! 

AB: We never had to pay anything did we. They just took the bar obviously and we took the door, that was the arrangement. 

[Music]

CA: So with flyering and stuff like that, would you flyer in the area where Candy Bar was?

MC: Yeah, around all the gay bars because it was like quite a few back in the day. First Out was always one of the main ones. I don't remember those ones. For me, it was First Out.

CA: What kind of vibe was that?

MC: [Laughs] Rest in peace! I don't want to dishonour its name.It's kind of like, I don't want to say ‘mung beans’, you know, I mean, it's kind of like…

AB: It was vegan before the vegans!

CA: That’s a good descriptive word.

MC: It was really chill, but it was a central point. Like the Candy Bar was, if you're coming to London from somewhere else, then those are places you could go and find information. 

AB: Definitely a gathering place wasn’t it. 

MC: Yeah, the Spot of Pride as well, I think.

AB: Oh, yeah. For sure.

CA:  Was that in the centre of Soho?

AB: Yeah, near Tottenham Court Road. I think that whole building has gone now, hasn’t it?

MC: I think they might have made way for the extension, for the underground station.

CA: We were up there taking a walk around and I was probably out in Soho for the past 10 years, I’m 29 now, and the landscape has changed so much. So many clubs that were there are just completely gone. 

AB: Yeah, it's really sanitised. 

MC: Yeah, it's really horrible.

CA: Like, super commercial. Like, I used to go out 10 years ago, like it wasn't insanely good, but it was better than what it is now. 

AB: For sure. Even the record shops have gone, and G-A-Y.

CA: Well, I mean, G-A-Y was the Burger King of partying.

AB: But it was still a place you could go and it was always there. Though I do remember going there with some friends and being asked ‘did we know it was a gay club?’ And they asked us if we were gay and I was like, ‘Yeah, I'm practising but not as often as I’d like to’

CA: I think there's still that way now, that there's a heavy emphasis on that male crowd, especially white male crowd so I feel like, going back to obviously you guys doing Precious Brown, I think that that's kind of very much carried on into raving now is that everything's about a night because there's not really a specific place that is a venue you can go to and you can get what you want.

AB:  But there were more back in the day. I mean, there literally were, I feel like now, having talked to some friends, it’s more itinerant things. So people don't have a solid place. I mean, Candy Bar did like a whole host of nights. There were loads, even down in Vauxhall…

CA: Yeah, I want to ask as well, like, the importance that  you hold for queer spaces, and especially Black queer spaces that are more women focused? How do you feel about them? How do you feel about their presence? And do you think that coming from the inception of what you guys have created, I guess, do you feel that the baton has been passed? Do you feel that it's moving in the direction that you would have imagined?

AB: I mean, as long as those spaces are still there, I mean, I'm not fully up to speed on what's where, you know, what's happening where but as far as I know, there are spaces for queer Black women.  I'm not obviously fully cognizant of where those spaces are, you know, which nights etc. But I don't think there's been a time when there hasn't been those types of spaces they might; there might obviously be less, probably less than they were. I don't know how long they even last. I don't know.

MC: It takes a lot of work.

AB: How long did we last?

MC: A couple of years I think. 

AB: If that!

CA: Why did that happen, do you feel? 

MC: I think people stopped coming.

AB: It’s a Sunday night as well! We were lucky to get people down on a Sunday. 

MC: And it was early as well. We finished by 11 didn’t we.

AB: It might even have been 10:30. 

MC: We started about 4 or 5.

CA: Okay!

MC: Yeah, it was proper early. But I also think, there are still Black queer spaces. I think they're a bit more, they're not just women, they're trans as well. It's just a bit more

encompassing and broader. So the clubs I know that people go to, it's accepting for a wider range of people.

CA: 100%

MC: Right. So, in terms of queer Black women, I don't know that that really is a thing. Queer Black, for sure, Black pride was last weekend, like 25,000 people. 

CA: Yeah, of course. 

MC: Yeah. I mean, there's obviously a need for it.

CA:  Yeah, 100%. Definitely. Going back to the first night that you held Precious Brown. How many people were in attendance? What sort of music were you playing? What were you drinking? What did it feel like? Was there a line outside the front door? Was it friends? Was it? 

AB: It was a lot of friends.

MC: I have lots of photographs. I think because also one of the reasons why we did the club was because other clubs weren't playing the music that we liked.

CA: I feel that!

AB: And the eclectic mix.

MC: Yeah, really eclectic. It was house, Latin African and Jazz.

AB: Hip-hop, pop; it was across the board.

MC: Yeah, it was everything.

CA:  And that must have been pretty different to what else was playing in Soho, especially at the time.

AB: And still now!

CA: And still now. 

AB: But also on the gay scene particularly. Yeah, because we used to rave elsewhere as well. I think on the gay scene, that was not…

MC: Yeah, exactly. 

AB: Although you did do the Lowdown?

MC No. Low Rider. 

AB: Lowdown? That’s an old cub. Low Rider. 

MC: That was to play all types of music to a queer audience. Like Ain was saying, that was more, if you’re doing house and techno, you're doing it was very strict in terms of styles of music. Whereas, for us, we're very eclectic. We want to play everything all at once. 

CA: That's the same thing I do. 

MC: Yeah, so it’s about making spaces to do that. Yeah. queer spaces to do that.

AB: We actually had a dancer

MC: Oh yeah! Didn’t we have a saxophonist? A friend on sax?

AB: We threw the kitchen sink at that place. 

MC: People were really up for it. We had an MC. Boo!

AB: Obviously, MC ChicaBoo!

MC: There were a lot of people up in that place.

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CA: With Precious Brown, you said they went on for a few years?

MC: Two.

CA: Okay, two years, that's technically a few. Two to a few! But like, what did you take with you from the experience of Precious Brown and your friendships and the need to have your people with you and listen to music on a Sunday and having those shared memories and laughing about stuff till next week. What did you take with you from it?

AB: I think I took with me that I never want to run another club! [All laugh] I was like ‘Phew, that’s over.’ Such hard work!  I don't know if I took anything, really. I mean it didn't quell; quench my love for music. So we still buy vinyl; buying too much vinyl. But yeah also we are still gigging here and there, I did a few festivals.

MC: You more than me. I’ve very rarely been playing. 

AB: Yeah, but I don't play often anymore, but there was a time when I was a resident at a night called Sunny Happy Day, which started in the early 2000s. And that was mostly house but, again, because I can't just play straight-up house, I would always mix throw in a jazz track, throw in a Latin track, throw in an African track.

CA:  I feel like that's definitely what people want. I don't know if that's how you felt then or whether it was a complete curveball to do that, but I feel like, especially now, people want that excitement of hearing something different thrown in.

MC: I think it was a bit of a curveball at the beginning, certainly for me. I don't know if you felt the same way, Ain. And sometimes I feel like, ‘oh God, how's this gonna go? How’s this track gonna go?’ Yeah, if I put this on, you know, how people are gonna react to it?

AB: That was very true. Yeah, it definitely felt like an experiment. 

CA: Generally, were places quite strict with what they wanted you to play? 

MC: It wasn’t from the venue, Ain means the audience. They’re coming in with certain expectations and we want to take them on a journey musically. You want to open people up to different kinds of styles. You want to play what you're buying at the end of the day. You want to hear it out in the club, but at the same time, you're like, ‘Is this is gonna, is this gonna work, it's gonna clear the floor?’

AB: Sometimes it did! A palette-cleanser. That’s alright!

CA: Yeah. As long as it's good music as well, because I mean, I feel like that's where a lot of the nights that are about today come from is that, you know, we'd be out in Soho, you go to G-A-Y, you go to Heaven, those places, and it's very much like, after maybe a month of hearing the same rotation of music, people did start to get bored and maybe a little bit destructive, because your mind's not really being pushed with what you're listening to. So I think a lot of nights did come up through that, because we were having house parties and at house parties, you heard something completely different than what you heard in a club. So I think it's that same kind of graduation from what you have in your home to bringing it out. How do you feel about this kind of archiving process, like me talking to both and speaking about the night and progression and what it means and what spaces mean?

MC: Well, I love archiving. I have a friend who is an archivist actually.

AB: It's so important. 

MC: Yeah. And they are really on me! Actually, a couple of friends are like ‘you’ve got to archive your stuff, you’ve got to archive all the posters and of your artworks’. So yeah, it's really important. I think also, I think sometimes when it comes to doing new nights, there’s this compulsion to be the first and actually, you know, it’s not that long ago. When those people, when the London Lesbian Gay Centre, the new one, was announced, everybody was like, ‘but didn’t that happen a couple of years ago?’

CA: I feel that kind of that constant need for rebrand.

AB: It’s not recognising what's come before. Yeah, there's a legacy.

MC: There is a legacy. And it's and I don't understand why people just, you know, you can literally Google, the London Lesbian Gay Centre, you can ask people, you can go to Bishopsgate Archive. And like, what's happened, what clubs have there been? I’m sure they have a big repository of club flyers and stuff. You know, it's not hard to find it if the intention is there. We talk about intergenerational conversations, which are important. Sometimes it feels a bit forced, but actually, you know, we’re a community. 

CA: Yeah. 100%. I agree.

MC: I think it's important to recognise that, although we all will do different things and it's great,  there's a thread that kind of connects us all.

CA: Yeah, I was saying earlier. I think that there's an experience that even though there might be differences and tangents and different ways and how you come to where you are, there is a thread for sure, definitely. Yeah, like my background as well apart from DJing, I'm a history graduate, so I looked at a lot of archiving as well and ‘history from below’ they call it, where we can use things such as photos, or music or poetry as sources. So I think it's super important that we're here and we do this.

AB: We're recording what's happening through different mediums. Not just like one medium, it’s across the board. 

CA: And we're not only just recording history for it to be in a book about a battle of who won and who lost. Now, it's history that's actually for a different audience than that stuff and that way of looking at things. So I wanted to ask you both, I'm 29 now, which is kind of a similar age to when you were both doing Precious Brown and yeah, basically asked you both, if you could speak to yourselves back then, what would you say?

MC: I was going to make a joke.

AB: Go on.

CA: Joke’s welcome.

MC: I was going to say, ‘Run!’ 

AB: I don’t know,  I just feel like it was just that panic would be my thing probably. Just enjoy it. You know, it wasn't like we had a journey in mind. Yeah, we just wanted to seize the moment and do something. You know, it's all very grassroots. If you’ve got an idea, go and do it.

MC: And also talk, because you’ll probably find someone who probably will do it with you. Find your community, that’s what I will say. 

CA: Hear hear to that!

[Music]

MT: Hey, Chantelle, how are you doing?

CA: I'm very well, how are you? 

MT: I’m good. It's so lovely to meet you. 

CA: Very lovely to meet you, too. Thanks for having me. 

MT: Oh, listen, I’m just so stoked that you've come on this journey with us to dig into the archive and to meet two amazing women who have been at the forefront of clubbing and DJing. So tell me, how was it meeting Ain and Marilyn?

CA: Well, it was an experience, it was a reflective experience for me. Especially because I feel like with music, it’s something that is quite integral to your life and to growing up; it’s not something you really think about, you don't really think about your relationship with it as often as maybe we should. So being able to speak to them both and then thinking about what music means to me, what music means to them, what music means to our community was an important checkpoint for me at this point. 

MT: And what did they teach you? What did you learn from them about what music meant to them and it means to you? Music means everything to me. What did you learn from them?

CA: I think what I learned from them is that if you are authentic, if you know what you want to share, if you know what you love, you should share it. And you should, you should make your move to do that. You know, it's not always enough. I'm not complaining about anyone that does just sit and listen to music at home. But if you have a talent, if you have an ethos, if you have something you want to share, you should share it. And their objectives back then, may have been just to enjoy, but they've actually birthed so much from that. So yeah, it's kind of given me a bit of confidence in that sense as well.

MT: So one of the things that they did birth from their love of music was to create and start Precious Brown, the club for Black queer women. What about your conversation and then creating spaces stayed with you?

CA: What stayed with me is the importance of family, the importance of shared experience, the importance of valuing each other, and the space to value each other and the space to come together and not only enjoy sound, but also for it to become a soundtrack for experience for our stories, for our love. Many of the things that happen in a night or at a club or at an event; it's a social thing. That was very much highlighted to me, the importance of sharing space with friends as well and making new friends and stuff. 

MT: I always think that we underestimate and downplay the importance of clubs, social spaces, but particularly clubs particularly the dance floor. We don't take it seriously or give it the reverence I think that it deserves in our community, because I think you're absolutely right. It is about socialising and making friends. But these are really safe spaces. And I think particularly for queer women, trans or non-binary folk, these are really important. How do you feel about the importance of those in our community today?

CA: I do feel as though there are efforts being made to try to crate spaces that are, although everyoens experience isnt ging to be the same, there’s the same common thread that we can understand and it’s carving out spaces, a space for one queer person isn’t the same for anotehr queer person and its having enough divesity within that, it hink thtats very important adn that’s what I’m thinking about now. It’s not a one size fits all when it comes to safe spaces and queer partying as well.

MT:So you’re a DJ, out there spinning tunes. So how was it to talk to people who were spinning and dropping tracks all those years ago? 

CA: It’s living history. Being able to have that conversation, it gives you a sense of where you could be going. I know, I’m sat having this conversation with them now, but they weren’t at my age, sat with anyone having that conversation. So, it’s looking forward and looking back and carrying both at the same time. 

MT: Were you inspired to go and find new things and do new things?

CA: Most definitely, especially in the chat, there was a reflective moment about what you’d say if you could speak to your 30-year-old self, and so, it was to just ‘don’t panic’ and put down what you need to put down. That gave me confidence that if you’re authentic and you know what you want to share, share it with your friends and then see what comes from that, because this is now 30 years on and it paved the way for every queer, female, femme-focused event in London, for sure.

MT: And I know that when Ain and Marilyn and Yvonne Taylor and all the other pioneers of Black, queer spaces for women and femme people were developed, there were real challenges for them, it was a male-dominated space. Even if we look around today, the DJs, all of the noise are men, cis-het white men at that. So what’s changed, is anything different today? Do you get breaks?

CA: I think there are instances where people are getting breaks. Whether or not it’s the break that is coming from a place of, I don’t want to sound shady and anyone who gets a break I’m here for, but I do think there is a corporate ideal around why, and I’d prefer if it was just out of the love, rather than in a corporate sense.

MT: I mean, that’s always been the way, right? This is why I’m a great believer of stop asking for a seat at the table which wasn’t made for you, and go out and create your own. With that in mind, are you going to go create a Precious Brown party?

CA: Listen, I’ll have some conversations. I’m ready for something new, I think we all need something new. I think as a community, we are not a stagnant community, we are always creating, we are always evolving and I think that should be reflected in our party scene for sure.

MT: I think you’re on a journey yourself and I want to hear you play out. I’m also hoping that in 20 years time, you’re sitting here with another young, queer DJ and you’ve taught them to play the decks, you’ve taught them how to mix tunes as well. And you sound like you had a wonderful conversation with these two icons of our Black life and social party scene, was there anything you found challenging, or unusual? 

CA: There wasn’t anything I found unusual, I actually resonated with their approach. They mentioned talking about the focus of their event being for Black, queer women but everyone was welcome, I thought that was a nice way to lead and to see where prioritising a group and prioritising who you’ve created the event for was important, but also allowing the space for other people to come as well, as long as they are respectful and they are friends of friends. I got that. And also just leading with the music; I think when you lead with the music, everything else follows. And there’s a culture in music and there’s a culture in the choices you make behind the music you pick.

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CA: So, the day after I spoke to Ain and Marilyn, I was at an event I was playing at and someone came over to me and spoke to me quite frankly about how my DJing had influenced their life and their approach to events and to partying and to feeling safe and not feeling aggravated or stressed because they knew they were coming to hear something that felt like it was for them. And that was super important to hear that.

MT: That’s a beautiful thing. You sound like exactly the type of DJ I want to be on the floor listening to. It’s been wonderful to talk to you. Thank you for going on that journey and meeting those two for us. 

CA: Thank you so much for having me. 

Music

MT: I've been your host, Marc Thompson. The reporter in this episode was Chantelle Ayanna. You can find the picture we've discussed in today's episode and all the images talked about throughout this podcast on Instagram, @BlackAndGayBackInTheDay. And drop us a message if you have something you want to submit to the link will be available in the show notes. 

Credits

[Music]

MT: I've been your host, Marc Thompson. The reporter in this episode was Chantelle Ayanna. You can find the picture we've discussed in today's episode and all the images talked about throughout this podcast on Instagram, @BlackAndGayBackInTheDay. And drop us a message if you have something you want to submit to the archive, a link will be available in the show notes. 

[Credits]