Episode 11 - BONUS: Abi McIntosh with a panel of Black and Gay, Back in the Day contributors

Black and Gay, Back in the Day

Season 1 Episode 11 - “BONUS: Abi McIntosh with a panel of Black and Gay, Back in the Day contributors”

Date: 20.12.2022

Season: 1

Episode: 11

Presenters: Marc Thompson

Contributors: Abi McIntosh, Femi Otitoju, Fopé Ajanaku, Jordan 

Producers: Shivani Dave, Tash Walker

Assistant Producer: Abi McIntosh

Music: Kemi Oyolede

Artwork: Amaroun

[Advert]

[Music]

MT: Welcome to a very special bonus episode of ‘Black and Gay, Back in the Day.’ I'm Marc Thompson, and I've been your host across the last 10 episodes. It's been an amazing experience making this first season of the podcast, and we've been on an incredible journey connecting people. 

[Music]

MT: It's been an honour to delve into our shared history, and facilitate nourishing conversations across a variety of generations and experiences.

At the root of every episode, we have brought to life an archive of images of Black queer life in Britain, from the 70s through to the early 00s. To celebrate all the work we have achieved throughout our history, and on this podcast, we had a panel event at the Standard Hotel in Kings Cross London. We brought together our amazing contributors to have a bigger conversation on what ‘Black and Gay, Back in the Day’ means to them. We hope you enjoy this chat as much as we enjoyed having it.

[Music]

MT: Good evening! Hello. You lovely, beautiful, beautiful people. Somebody just said, ‘I've never seen so many, so many shiny, beautiful Black people’. And it's Black history month. So you know, welcome to the Standard Hotel. It is so lovely to see all of you here on this Monday evening in October, which has been quite a beautiful October. It's been really lovely. So I'm so glad to see you all here today. First of all, can I have a round of applause for Chantelle, who's been on the decks warming up. Now, Chantelle will appear in episode six of the little podcast, you are all here to celebrate tonight. And she's going to be in that episode alongside the very wonderful Marilyn Clarke and Ain Bailey. And Ain will be on the decks a bit later. So please stick around, there'll be more drink, there'll be more food and you know, I like to throw a party so it's going to be fun! So let's tear this place up in a nice Western-bougie-hotel-way, because I know y'all can get! 

So anyway, first of all, it's really really good to see so many friends, family, colleagues, allies, supporters, listeners all here today. I'm so grateful you've come out. It means so much to me. Now I'm sure that when some of you first saw my posts of me sitting in the studio with headphones on, you went ‘oh bloody hell! What's he doing now?’ It must feel that me and my company, the Love Tank, we put out content as frequently as the Tories change policy, change chancellor and change leader. But hopefully what I do is quality and quantity. So tonight is really really special to me. It's a culmination of a lot of work. It's not been an easy journey, but it's been a fun, rewarding journey. 

So when Jason Okundaye, who I created the original account with, started this, we didn't anticipate going on this incredible journey. But since we started the account in February 2021, to tell the little stories of Black queer life in the UK, we have been on a rollercoaster ride. And here we are, a year and a bit later, with over 12 and a half thousand followers. Come on now! Apparently that means something, I’m over 50 so shit, if I get a like, that's good! But we'd be featured in magazines and newspapers, we've been on radio shows. It's gone global. We inspired a TV documentary and now this amazing podcast. But I hope that more than anything we sparked people's interest in this rich and wonderful history. That we've connected people from the past, that we've kick-started intergenerational conversations and connections, and inspired people to look through those old photos to reflect on our individual and collective histories. And as Femi says in episode two: ‘to young people, to start intentionally taking pictures and start archiving your stories for ‘Back and Gay, Back in the Day: 2043,’’ for we have to tell the stories. They are important. As my friend Antoine, Dr. Antonie Rogers often says, ‘We have to put down the evidence of our existence.’ And this podcast, and the Instagram account, are all about the evidence of our existence. 

So please, please, please check out the page, check out the podcast. So I'm not gonna chat for too long because we've got a great panel conversation coming up. And you can listen to me on multiple podcasts if you want to hear me talk shit! But I have to say some thank you’s. So first of all, thank you Chantelle for that set, for warming us up. It's so, listen fam, if you know me, you know, I love my music! And so it's so good and so refreshing to hear new queer voices and DJs on the deck. So thank you for that. I want to thank my little nephew, Jason Okundaye, who's not here today. Jason is out busy, writing, working, tearing shit up, causing trouble, probably upsetting some white people on Twitter somewhere. But I couldn't have done this without Jason. If any of you know the story about the podcast, the Instagram account; I created it one Sunday morning, I posted, Jason sent me a message and said ‘Uncle, can I help you with an Instagram account because’ and before I knew it, we had a load of likes.

I want to thank all of our wonderful contributors for all of the wonderful, wonderful conversations that you've taken part in, the youngsters and the elders, thank you for giving your time, thank you for digging deep into those memories and those stories and sharing them with each other. I want to thank my Aunt Nell team, to Tash and to Shiv, put your hands up. Now, these two people came to me with an idea. And we've made it happen. So thank you for that. Thanks to Abi, our producer; assistant producer, you've done an amazing job. And we're going to be seeing more from Abi on the panel. And Amaroun for the amazing music. I've already had people hit me up and go ‘where's that music from?!’, so follow Amaroun, check out that work. And Kemi Oyolede for the incredible artwork at the back there. We love what you've done, of transferring those pictures into illustrations; beautiful. To the Audio Content Fund for believing in the project and giving us the money to make it. Gaydio who are broadcasting each episode weekly to UK Black pride, and Bishopsgate Institute for letting us run around your spaces with our microphones. For Content is Queen and the Glass House Studios for allowing us to come in, sit down, take up time and chat. To Lori and all of the team at The Standard, thank you for hosting us tonight for being fantastic behind the scenes of making this happen. You really are making this a special place for us, our queer community, in London. I can't not say this without making a big shout out to the Love Tank crew. Dale’s here tonight and the rest of them are in absence, but you boys are amazing. You helped me do this shit and give me the freedom to do it. And to the listeners, you are the most important people, we need you to listen. 

And finally, if there's anybody in this room who hasn't downloaded, shared or liked, why not. I'll take you back a drinks ticket and your chicken pieces. But seriously, if you haven't listened to it, please download the podcast, share it, like it, leave a review. It's available on all podcast platforms; wherever you listen to your podcasts. But please do that because it really does make a difference. I was just showing today that if you open your apple podcasts, we are on the front page! Come on now! So we're gonna play you a quick clip in a moment. I want you to raise your glasses, in a moment. And we're going to sit down with some of our amazing contributors. And Abi is going to ask us a few questions. Then there’s music, Ain’s gonna be on the decks, we’ll have a bit of dancing, a bit of a ki-ki and I'll have a drink later. Thank you very much! Play us the clip.

[Clapping, cheering]

—-----

[Music]

[Black and Gay, Back in the Day trailer:]

MT: ‘Welcome to Black and Gay, Back in the Day’. We’re bringing to life the archive of images of Black, LGBTQ+ life in Britain from the 1970s to the early ‘00s. 

[Music]

MT: I’m Marc Thompson, I’m an activist and health promotion specialist, and I’ve built this archive with the journalist and writer Jason Okundaye. In each episode, I'll be asking a younger, queer person to delve into our Black queer history by digging into the archive.

AM: He’s got a really really nice smile and he’s got a really, really friendly face and I really like his outfit. I love the cut of his jeans. 

JVJ: And the fact that his finger is, his index finger, is pointed directly down kind of creating a line of power all the way down to his shoes, and his feet, which are together. It makes me think of the magician’s Tarot cards.

MT: Finding the people…

YB: It's nice to meet you! 

RB: Nice to meet you too!

YB: It's weird because usually when I meet people I haven’t already seen them in speedos but in your case I have already seen you in speedos but from like 10 years before I was born!

JO: You’re living proof that you can find it, or it finds you. But yeah, that’s the true gift right, at the end of the….

DC: And for the lucky ones, it finds us more than once too! [Both laugh]

MT: By telling the stories behind the photos…

TB: The danger with taking these things for granted is that you don’t appreciate your achievements and there are people waiting to take those away and I think many of us need to be more conscious and politically active in order to keep what we have and move forward.

FO: And that’s why pictures like this are so important, isn’t it? Because they remind us that when we work together, we can actually achieve change and you know, whoever, whichever wonderful person who took that picture, I'd like to say thank you because it is so important to have this stuff recorded and available for people to see.

[Music]

MT: Subscribe on your podcast app to be the first to know when we release a new episode, and make sure to follow us on instagram @backandgaybackintheday to learn more.

[Music]

—-------

MT: Give it up for Black and Gay, Back in the Day! Raise your glasses please. 

[Clapping, cheering]

MT: So I would now like to invite up our panellists. First, we have Abi, who's going to be chairing the panel, Femi, Fopé and Jordan, please come up and join us on the stage.

[Clapping, cheering]

AM: Hi, thank you so much for being here tonight. My name is Abi McIntosh. My pronouns are she/her and I'm in Episode One and I'm also an assistant producer on the podcast. And I'm going to be leading the panel today. I'm really excited to have you all here. It's really nice to see you all in person because I've heard your voices over and over again. And so yeah, I guess I'll start. So my name is Abi, my pronouns are she/her. And I'm in Episode One, talking to Ted Brown. And it'd be great if you could just go down the panel and talk about who you are, what you do, your pronouns and what episode you're in.

FO: Hi, I'm Femi. And I don't know what episodes I'm in. Number two, I'm in Episode Two. How cool is that? And my pronouns are she/her. And I am currently working, as almost all of us, a diversity and inclusion consultant. But like I am training parliament! All of them. All of them!

MT: Well, you know me, I’m Marc, my pronouns are he/him and I just got up to loads of trouble and shit.

FA: I’m Fopé, pronouns they/them. I'm an educator, writer, facilitator, youth organiser. And similarly, I just chat a lot of shit. I’m in Episode Two with Femi. 

JO: Hi, I'm Jordan. I'm a musician. I also work in music. My pronouns are he/him. I'm on Episode Five, I think, chatting about love with the amazing Dennis. So yeah.

AM: Great. Um, so Jordan, I'll start with you. I really love your episode. Jordans’ episode is about love, and specifically Black love. And it's a really beautiful conversation and you're both really vulnerable. You and Dennis, who you speak to in the episode, and it'd be great to hear what you think reflecting back on the episode in the chat you had with Dennis?

JO: Yeah,  it was completely overwhelming. Actually, I think that was the main thing I walked away with. I was saying to Marc that Dennis has this way of speaking right through you that you just have to sit and take it all in. And I was just honoured at the end of it. I think I went into it trying to find what is a long-standing truth about love, like between my age and his age, what persists, what is undeniable about love? And I walked away with a couple of things. I think some of the questions I asked him regarding like, what's a truth that you have carried with you? And like some of the things that maybe give us more hope for the future. And so, I got something out of it. I don't know if he got anything for me. But yeah, I enjoyed myself. I had a good time.

AM: I really loved how vulnerable you were on the episode as well. You really spoke from the heart and I think it really reflected in the conversation you were having with Dennis.

JO: Yeah, I think  if you're going to get anything out of it, it's like going to therapy, why not open up? You're wasting your time. I'm wasting his time, everyone's time; if I'm not at least an open book or trying to be. But yeah, he was also very, like, it made me happy for him to say, people hadn't asked him these questions in, I don't want to say how many years, but, a long, long, long time. But no, I really, really, really had a great time and I'm all about chats, ask me anything and I'll tell you.

AM: That's great. Okay, and Fopé is the other young person on the panel, it'd be great to hear what you thought reflecting on the episode that you did.

FA: Reflecting on the episode, the first thing I was like, ‘Oh, I hate my voice!’ But it was really lovely to hear back, because it was just a conversation between two people.  I remember when we first started, we had to stop because the producers were like, ‘No,this is great. We need to record it.’ Because we were just getting along so well. And there were so many points of commonality. And it was really nice. And I think it is an episode just to have conversations with an elder, queer person, because in a lot of our communities, we just don't have that. That relationship, it's missing, whether our own family is homophobic or queer phobic, or, like older queer people are racist. And it's like, where do I fit in? And who is the person who will say to me, ‘you're doing alright, kid, just do this, do this, and you’ll be good.’

And that is, it was such a comfort. I remember I walked out the studio, I walked home, and I was like, I'm happy to be alive, right now. It  just brought me so much palpable joy, to be able to have these like conversations, like high level political conversations with someone who's lived a life that I am going to live, and feel reassured at the end of it and not feel like it's going to lead me to despair. I felt like there is hope, so thank you Femi.

AM: And what's one standout thing from your conversation that you think you’ll take with you? Big Question!

FA: So many things, but there was like a point at the end of the conversation, we were both talking about the fact that we’re Nigerian and how so much of our identity isn't just like one or the other. And I think so many Black queer people have this, that it's not just your Blackness or it's not just your queerness, it's all these identities mesh into this beautiful cake. And it frames so much of how you see the world. And we were saying because of our Nigerianness, no matter where you go in the world, you will always find a Nigerian, like you can go to Antarctica and you will find a Nigerian. And that sense of community is so deeply rooted in my ideas of justice, my ideas of love, my ideas of how I look after my blood family and my found family and to hear someone pluck the words that hadn't formed yet in my mind and say them to me. I hadn't made that connection. Like I care about community. I care about justice, because of my identity, until you said it, and I was like, ‘oh, yeah, of course!’ Because you’re Nigerian! Duh!

So it was that I've taken with me and I've rooted that. As a framework, I teach a lot of young people I work with, and I was like, ‘What is your lived experience? What are your self-interests? Who are you as a person?’ And like, once you figure that out, you can figure out, what was the world you want to build? What is the world you want to see? Or the politics you want to imbue to like the rest of your family? And it's really just changed the way I teach, so thank you Femi. 

FO:Thank you, lovely! 

AM: And also three of you on the panel are Nigerian, by the way, I don't know if you knew that.

MT: Nyjah Rule!

AM: I’m not gonna say anything but…

MT: A bit of old Jamaican there.

AM: So Marc, you and I both worked on the production team. And obviously everyone knows about the Instagram account. But it'd be great to hear how the project came about, where it started?

MT: Yeah, sure. So I had worked with Tash on The Logbooks, I participated in an episode of that. And I'd also done some work with Shiv, around PrEP, and Shiv had done some volunteering for us. And so when the account was bubbling and picking it up, Shiv and Tash reached out to me and were like ‘this would make a really cool podcast.’ And I was like, ‘oh, yeah, maybe’ Because we had already done a podcast, and I was like, okay, so what are we going to do next? 

So we had a brief and we split-balled ideas, and I'd already had an idea which I pitched somewhere else, which was about young people going on a journey to find out the stories behind the picture. And funnily enough, Shiv and Tash both had the same idea. So it was perfect. And then they just went away and scripted and decided these are the young people, so I didn’t have to do that, which is a relief because I was like, I don't know any young people apart from the ones that I work with! But they came up with this amazing list of young people who worked in different fields, were involved in different parts of activism, the arts, creativity, and they said, ‘this is our list’, and off they went and started to record. And it's been a year of just joy, creativity. digging deep. I've got to meet some amazing people again and learn some stories. And fun fact, this the first time that Femi and I have met, I think this is what is so important, look Jordan’s got his mouth on the floor. Two legends me! But I think this is what's really important about the podcast, and the Instagram account, it has reconnected people along the lines. And so that, for me, is the most important thing that has come out of the process as well.

AM: And what do you think it is, what do you think people will gain from it being a podcast rather than, just like they go together now, rather than just having an Instagram account?

MT: So the great thing about it being a podcast is it gives us an opportunity to delve deeper into the stories. So the picture gives you a visual reminder, it gives you a prompt to go and maybe dig a little bit deeper into the history. So you may look at, I see Roy's there, you may look at Roy Brown's picture and go,’ Oh, what was happening in 1985/86 around Mr. Black, Gay UK?’ You may look at Dennis' picture and go, ‘Oh, who's Essex Hemphill?’ So I think that what prompted people, what the podcast allows us to do  over 30/40 minutes, is to really delve not just into the individual stories, but the social, historical context within which these pictures took place.

AM: And Femi, you obviously were around when a lot of the photos were taken. What do you think has been great about going back into that time and thinking about what was going on then and retelling it?

FA: Well, for me, personally, what's been great is the sense that it was worth it. When I say it was worth it, it wasn't just about being out and dealing with all the repercussions of that. It was also about dealing with being called a camera queen and a soundbite queen and various other things. Because I had this huge sense of responsibility that,  if someone doesn't put their face in front of the camera, and I could; not everybody could. But I was here and I was alone and I wasn't, you know, responsible to anybody. And so I could just be the one who went, Yeah, we're here. So yeah, the biggest takeaway for me when I look at those pictures is, yeah, it paid off. And when I met you,Fopé, when I met you I thought, Oh, it's so paid off! Look at what we did, us oldies. Because I think I felt there wasn't anyone there to open the door for me. I first had to find the fucking door. And then I had to batter at the door in order to be able to come out. And I was so determined that other people shouldn't feel that. So that's the biggest thing. Yeah.

AM: And I actually have another question for you. So my conversation was with Ted Brown. And I actually haven't had that much chance to meet other Black people, especially people who are a lot older. And your conversation was really great, because you're both in exactly the same space. And it was nice to hear you talking back and forth about the different struggles you have. And you were enlightening about influencers and stuff like that. So what do you think you can learn from like having intergenerational conversations?

FO: I mean, for me, I learn about understanding how people are facing, it feels like we did work, and it should be cool now, when I think about, you know, it's nice now to have spaces, it's easy to find them. But for me, whenI speak across generations, it gives me insight into the new ways in which we have to force doors open, the new ways in which we have to find ways of communicating. And it helps me do what I want to do better for people who are still coming up. Otherwise, it's very easy to get caught up in: ‘this is my experience. I know how these things work.’ And unless we continue these conversations, I hope it isn't just that one conversation that we have, unless we continue them, I'm going to just end up out of date. And it's going to be worse than not just being able to use my phone properly. It's actually going to be about not being able to connect with the different generations and I think that's vitally important.

AM: And Jordan, what about you speaking to Dennis, why do you think that conversation was so important to you?

JO: For me, I grew up in Ireland, a lot of my formative experiences are in Ireland, and I wouldn't trade anything. But there weren't any old queer people. They weren't even like young queer people of colour. So for me, and I met you in Hampstead Heath. And you said something that was so piercing to me, you said ‘Do not let your queerness disassociate you from where you came from.’ I never had that, like I never had any visual of people of colour. I had to go find different things. As I said in the podcast, I had to go watch Desperate Housewives to see queer couples. It was great, a wonderful show! So it was really important to just see even the picture with Dennis and Essex, it was taken by a   guy. And I was like, Oh, my God, a Nigerian gay person who was here way before me, and left something that would live so long, to hit me when it needed to. And that was why it was important. I never saw Black love growing up until I came here in l206 on a trip, and, you know, got chatting to other Black people. So yeah, it painted a picture that there was a lot that happened before you and there was a lot that was set for you to make the journey easier. And so yeah, that's kind of my level of importance I ascertain.

AM: And Fopé, you mentioned in your chat with MarC at the end of Episode Two, that it really made you think about the kind of stuff that you're archiving now. And could you add some comment into what you think archiving is or what you should be archiving now?

FO: I mean, I think archiving in itself is a radical act, because often like, you know, the history books are written by the winners. So who remembers our stories, who remembers our jokes, who remembers what we wore, the bad decisions we made? And if, you know, our elders didn't have the archive, we wouldn't know right that we were here, and we slayed! We slayed hard! We did. And I think that's so important, not just I think in terms of remembering who we are and we have a long history for the people trying to be like, ‘Oh, no, blah, blah, blah. This is like bullshit.’  And I'm like, ‘No, we've always been here.’  I think it's also just deeply [important] to remember, there hasn't always been pain, it hasn't always been trauma, it hasn't always been struggle, like so much of like, ‘Black History Month’ is just about remembering, slavery. And  I remember there's a really good point of like, if all of Black history was in a book, slavery wouldn't even be a chapter, it would be a footnote. And I always think about that! It’s like, we have so much joy, we have so much history, we have so much living that we have done, and we will continue to do so. And so now,  like I said this is the end of our chat, every single time I do something, I’m like ‘take a photo of me! Record me!’ And it's so important to tell all the young people I work with that in 20 years, you want to remember these moments, right? 

And whenever we do ‘Black and Gay, Back in the Day’ in 2063, you want to be like, ‘Hey, back, then we did this!’ And it's so important, because often I think we lose sight of where we have come from. And if we don't remember where we've come from, we often lose the way of where we're going. And so this archiving to me is a map. It's a map forwards and backwards. Time isn't linear. It's all blah, blah, blah! So it's deeply important. This is like another podcast episode. Watch it anywhere you find podcasts. But yeah.

AM: So you mentioned that it's important, because it's like time isn't linear. How do you think having access  to this kind of archive would have been helpful for you coming out? I know, it would have been amazing for me to know that I wasn't the only Black lesbian in London, which is crazy for me to think now. But I really thought that a few years ago!

FA: I think it's important because often politically, we think progress is linear. Like we make strides, and we continue making strides. But progress is actually cyclical ebb and flows, like the waves of the ocean. And I think it's quite useful. I think for a lot of young people who deliberately haven't been educated about  not just our history, but our political history, we often get stuck in this mode of trying to reinvent the wheel, right? Rather than standing firm of: ‘No, we have won this conversation and X, Y and Z did it 20 years ago by doing this.’  And often we don't have the words or the language to articulate ourselves or the evidence because it's lost in the ether. So I think having  the archive is like, there’s that quote that ‘Racism is a distraction’ and I’m like, not I’m even going to let you distract me  and not get myself into this conversation where like, you're in a bad faith actor trying to like just piss me off.’

I didn't need to, because my elders have already done this for me, I've got real work to do, right. And I think archiving is like a big ‘fuck you’ but it's also like a deep remembrance of the work that has been done, we have so much more to do, let's not get bogged down into a cultural war of whether or not Black people are more homophobic than white people. Like, we don't need to do that. Like it's nuanced. Let's move on to something deeply important. But like, you know, saving trans people at the moment. And I think the archive is so useful. It's useful to remind me ‘yeah, I'm not the only Black, like Black queer person’. But I think it's a hugely important political tool.

FO: And it's a gift. Yeah, archiving is a gift across the generations. And when people commit their stories, they're offering people a route, you talk about it as being a map. It's not just a map that you study, it's actually an opportunity to continue the journey that other people have started. And it's the biggest gift that I could possibly think of as giving to people. 

AM: Yeah, I love that. And Jordan, obviously, you grew up Black and queer in Ireland, what kind of things do you hope that what you're doing and the work you're making is leaving for other young kids in Ireland?

JO: So for the longest time, for the longest, longest, longest time, all I wanted to do was just blend in with everybody else. I think my Mum’s genes were like, ‘No, absolutely not! You will be 6”7!’ And I truly, truly detested it and hated everything about it. I remember being nine, arriving, going to primary school and instantly telling my mum on the walk to the principal's office that I wanted to change my name from, like my Ebo name to Jordan. And she was like, ‘Are you sure?’ And only think how crazy it is now for a nine year old to look at their mother, trembling in fear being like, ‘I want to fit in so much.’ 

It's hard and I'm not there yet. But who is it, E.E. Cummings says, ‘Say who you are as loudly as possible for someone who's not yet born, or someone who has lost.’ And that's kind of where I'm trying to be now. I found a way to do it through music and I'm trying to take my time to say what I have to say, whether it's about love. A lot of my projects were about love because I knew love and I was like, This is great. I can say it to somebody else who didn't find it as early or whatever time and and I hope I hope that people growing up like the queer people who see me now know that like, you won't always be alone, you won't always be weird, you won't always be different people, people won't always make the wrong assumptions off you. Because maybe I will help in a tiny way to sway people's minds in the right direction. So yeah, that's kind of my check.

AM: I love that. Marc, I think it's really clear how important it is to have these intergenerational conversations. And I'd be interested to know what you think is next, for ‘Black and Gay, Back in the Day’, and how we can kind of keep these conversations going?

MT: Season Two would be nice! So, and more pictures, so submit, submit, submit. I mean, before I go into what's next, I also just want to really reflect on what a few of our contributors have said here, which is about, again, when I set out to create a piece of work it’s usually for one reason, you know, it's like, oh, I want to put some pictures out, because that's really cool. Or I want to do a PrEP campaign, because it's gonna get more people taking PrEP or whatever that is.  But the feedback response, the engagement with this has been outstanding. And it's when people say things like, ‘it's radical, it's political.’ I thought I was just putting pictures out there. But when somebody says, ‘it makes me realise I wasn't the only Black queer person, it makes me understand that I'm not alone in the world.’ And I think for some of us, older activists, and I look out at the room and I see some of my wonderful comrades from over the years. What we did, this is what we fought for. And this has been worth it. And we struggled. But this is the price. But the fight continues. But what's next, for ‘Black and Gay, Back in the Day’ I need more pictures, I need more submissions, we want to keep it going. We want more people to tell their stories. We want you to archive and be prepared for the next lot of work that we do.

AM: Yeah. So I think for me, working on this podcast and being a part of it, it's made me really think about the kind of impact that I'm having whether I know it or not, because what I really love about the podcast is that these aren't people that you might necessarily read in your average history book during Black History Month. And I think it's really important that we all realise that whether we know or not, we are making a difference in someone's life. And so it'd be good to hear what you think, what you would like to see more of? What kind of things do you want people to keep, what do you want people to archive in the future?

MT: I mean, if we lived in a day where people were still getting club flyers, when you went out, you know when you’d go out if you're old enough, they'd had your club flyers, I mean, keep those and if you have those, please send them to me, because I want to do some work around clubbing because we found our life on the dance floor. So let's read; let's remember those spaces, because they don't exist anymore. Take your pictures like Fopé said, curate that. If you're older, dig into those pictures, dig into those stories. But you know what, connect with people. Younger people reach out to your older queers. We're out there, learn those stories. Many of us live in isolation. We don't connect with the world anymore. Reach out, find a way you know, support your elders and engage with your elders.

AM: That's great. I'm conscious of time. So does anyone have any questions that they want to go for?

MT: I know there aren’t shy people in this room. You’re lying!

[Background chatter]

MT: Somebody’s coming with a microphone.

Q1: Only because no one was asking. So yes, young people take lots of pictures. Like how do you know which one is the one? We didn't have that problem? Did we? So when you look at those back in the day,  it was easy to find the photo, because there weren't very many of them? How do young people? Because I'm not young, but I've got like thousands of photos on my phone, which one is the one you take. And how important is the photo still, and in, as you say, Marc, to prompt us to remember when there's so many photos being taken now.

MT: As Femi said, in Episode Two, ‘take those pictures’, but I want to kind of add to that be intentional about the pictures that you are taking, you will know what the right ones are for you to archive and you to keep we will look back through the thousands of pictures that are in our phone and we go, ‘that's the one I'm going to keep I'm going to delete the other 20.’ And when you're setting out to take the picture or to record the archive or whatever it is, don't think about it as being archived, right? Sometimes just take it. And when you look back, you're like, ‘Oh, shit. That was a moment!’ And sometimes I look back at pictures of me and my friends, which are just completely random. And I'm like, ‘oh my god, that was a moment, that was a memory, that was the most important thing’, you will know when you see it.

AM: Any other questions?

MT: Uncle Ted! Give it up for Uncle Ted please! The father of the movement!

[Laughing, clapping]

TB: I wonder whether you think it would be valuable to try and reach back to the older generation, pre-1969, pre-Stonewall, because then I remember a few years ago, seeing a photograph of some Black, lesbian and gay parties in Harlem in 1943. And thinking, What were these people doing? What were they going through? How do they stand up for themselves? Because I have no idea. If we lose that memory, we've lost something that's incredibly valuable about people who were standing up in a situation where they had almost no support. So I wonder whether you are thinking in any way of reaching back into the past?

MT: Thank you, Ted. You're absolutely right. And we always want to keep digging back and getting more pictures, we have a couple of issues with that, I think are twofold. And then somebody pointed out to me, when we started to collate pictures for the Instagram page, a lot of us were not taking pictures, we were not thinking about taking pictures or archiving or anything like that so a lot of that material has been destroyed and has gone missing. That's why it's really important that you keep and you collect stuff there. The second thing is that sadly, many people who even submitted pictures to me recently from the 80s, and 90s, didn't want to be out, are still not out or they're out, you know, ‘I'm out to my friends at the club but I don't want to be on Instagram, I don't want to be on social media.’ So one has to respect that. So we have to understand that also. However, there are still different ways for us to tell those stories, which aren't simply through the visual medium of a photograph. So if there are people from that generation, then yes, get them. Let's get them recorded. Let's film them. Let's put them on podcasts and tell those stories and through our pictures, send them through to me. 

AM: Any other questions? I'm coming, I'm coming. I'm coming. I'm coming. I'm coming.

Q2: Hi, Uncle! I guess my question is,  outside of the amazing podcasts that you guys have created, what are  other resources you'd recommend for young queer people to to learn more about history, specifically that Black queer British histories? Because there aren't that many from what I've seen.

FO: Old lady talking! I think there are organisations, there are support networks, I think they're still really useful. It was one of the things that I was really into at the beginning. And when Ted talks about older people, I remember when we started the Black Lesbian Group, we had to go for older people who had been isolated. So I think if you access some of the newer, alternative social groups; it's warmer than just the podcast because you actually get to meet people. I'm thinking of queer people of colour, we've got a representative from QPOQ over here, give a little wave. And I think those are the sorts of things that people should be trying to do.

MT: I mean, I think the answer is part of the problem; there isn't a lot. There's not a lot that's written down. And now is the time to start asking. Jason Okundaye who created this with me is writing a book, ‘Revolutionary Acts’, which will be out sometime next year, which is a story of Black queer men in South London. So there's that. I would also suggest, obviously, outside the podcast, but speak to people. I think that's the most important thing. And a quick plug. I'm an ambassador for Opening Doors London, which is a charity that works with over 50 queer communities. Volunteer; become an ambassador, become a volunteer and have one-to-one conversations. And that's where you'll learn. But get book deals, go out, find people, tell publishers, create content. The world is ours. Let’s take it. There you go! All sorts.

Q3:It's not so much a question as to inform people of the film, ‘Under Your Nose’ that Veronica McKenzie has made and is being screened tomorrow at her house in Brixton. It may well be sold out, but I'm sure if it's standing room, I don't know. But you know, the film documents the history of the Black Lesbian and Gay Centre project, and its founding. And it was a time when we were struggling to make a presence and we certainly made our presence felt Thank you.

MT: Just check it out, there's always a Black issue. ‘Dear’ is another short film that you can watch, Topher Campbell's film, ‘Great Moments in Black History’, which is on Channel Five as well. Two great documentaries for you to certainly watch and check out as well. 

AM: One more question?

Q4: Hiya, is there one photo that encapsulates your queerness that you will want to be seen in 50 or 100 years?

AM: That's a big question. 

FA: Very big question. I mean, there's one first that comes to mind. For me, it's my 21st birthday. And does anyone know Pussy Palace here? Yes! This was the first ever night and I went with Nadine, one of my girls, and obviously at Pussy Palace there's a catwalk and when it was a much smaller event, I used to be very comfortable doing a catwalk, and there's a photo of me in my birthday dress; a gold dress and a birthday tiara and I'm very drunk.  I think I'm like mid-walk and I’m sitting down and I'm doing that. And it's a sensational photo! And you see everyone's face like mid-gasp. And it's a fantastic photo! I could never do it again. But I hold that like if there’s one thing you’ll remember me, remember that photo? Because I look good!

Audience: Put it in the archive!

FA: I will!

JO: I don't know. I think my greatest moments are yet to come. So watch out. Also, things change meaning over time. So maybe in retrospect, I'll look at this picture and be like, ‘This is my greatest Black queer moment’. It is up to date. I mean, like it is the proudest I've been to be around people who look like me and also queer., I'd say it's on its way. It's like, it walks hand in hand with my journey with comfort around how queer I am in front of my family, my family's friends. So I think once I conquer that hero's journey, I'll get there eventually. But I'm happy knowing that there's a route. And that's what this is great for. It's great for knowing that there's a pathway, you're going somewhere. Because a lot of us just aimlessly move around, and we find information. We just happen upon it. But, it's great to just see people who look like us and tell us that, you know, further down not even that far along, you will reach greatness and people will lift you up, because we just had to do that ourselves. So I think it's on its way.

AM: I think I know mine. I don't know if I'd share it anytime soon.

FA: You have to now!

AM: It's not that bad. But it was after my first Black Pride in 2016. I may have been under the influence. And it's a selfie I took. I'm crying a little bit and there's a Jamaican flag and a Pride flag in the background of the photo. And for me, those are just two things that I could never see in the same place. I could never imagine that. So I think for me, that is a picture that really was the one time that I  remember being like ‘I am whole. I'm fine. I can be both.’ And I think that will always be the start of me embracing both of me, I guess. So. Yeah.

FO: Mine's a bit like that. There's a photograph of me at a family wedding. And it's me and my partner. And if you're Nigerian or you know, Nigerian people, you will know what's going on here. So we're getting dressed for the wedding. And we've got the matching lace. You know how everybody has to wear the same lace if they're from the same family. So there's me and my little white partner and we've got the same lace on, you have to make it in any outfit at all. So we've both got trousers instead of the aso-ebi robe that the women will be wearing. And then you take 10 pounds and you go to the woman who's going to tie your gele, you'll get as your headdress. And I remember taking Claire, I’m going to name-check her, to the gele woman who looked at her and went ‘really?’ and I said, ‘okay.’ So she tried this gele and put a big flower on the side of poor Claire's head. And the picture is of the two of us in this matching lace, the same lace that all the rest of my family are wearing. She was there, it was them saying ‘she's part of the family’ that she was able to wear that lace. And it was honestly a symbol of her love for me that she wore that thing with the flower on the side of her head and allowed herself to be photographed with me in it. So thank you to her and my family for letting that happen.

MT: So I've got lots and lots of pictures of me with groups of Black gay men. It's no surprise. But there's one in particular that immediately springs to mind and it's taken in the summer of 1992 at a dear friend of ours, called Robert Mirage who's not here tonight. And it's me, Robert, Dennis Carney, Clarence Allen, I want to say Haydn Kirnon's in there, and Trevor Clark, and we were all working at what was then ‘Let's Rap’ which was a weekly, fortnightly group for Black gay men to build community, connect, but also to teach about the HIV epidemic and prevention. And that picture means a lot to me because I was a baby gay twink. These men had taken me in their arms and had put me on the career path that I was, and the journey that I went on. So they are to blame for me being here today. So that would be my picture, because that demonstrates Marc Thompson’s journey.

[Cheering, clapping]

AM: Thank you so much for having a chat with me and things are open and honest. And I hope you all have subscribed and you've listened to Episode One and Two, and you've got some really good conversations coming. So thank you so much.

[Cheering, clapping]

MT: I’ve been reminded to let you know that we are in the Guardian this week, The Observer this week, the Financial Times. And yeah, everywhere else. I'm hoping!

AM: I wrote a piece in the Metro so read it!

MT: Oh in the Metro that Abi wrote, so check it out. And stick around, Ain’s gonna be spinning some tunes in a moment. So thank you very much.

[Music]

[Credits]

MT: I've been your host Marc Thompson and the voices you heard in this episode were Abi McIntosh, Femi Otitoju, Fopé Ajanaku and Jordan, a.k.a musician Xona.

A big thank you to the standard hotel and their team for hosting this event and helping us record the conversation.

You can find the pictures discussed in today's episode and all the images talked about throughout this podcast on Instagram @BlackandGayBackInTheDay. Drop us a message if you have something you want to submit to the archive, a link will be in the show notes. We hope to be back with a second season next year. So if you are interested in helping support that project do get in touch with us via AuntNell.com.

[Music]